white vs. black dirt on film....

Post by **filmo** » Fri May 11, 2007 11:26 pm

I said it once, and I'll say it again...

the white spots from dirty negative are less distracting that the black spots from dirty reversal.

Ideally, you want to transfer clean original, but somehow with super 8, dirt always makes its way into the transfer.

Exeter has numerous white specks which lead me to believe it was shot on neg stock. It still looks very good--I would have thought 16mm for sure

Post by **super8man** » Sat May 12, 2007 1:17 am

TBH, I found the white specs distracting. I am "used" to black specks (even in real movie theatres) so I vote for black specs. The film itself and the image was fine.

Post by **woods01** » Sat May 12, 2007 2:38 am

I second black over white. Films are more likly to have dark colours where
a black spec is not going to be noticed as much as a white one. Are white
specs an issue with the top telecine shops and after cleaning? I've always
felt part of the issue with neg is that few people are getting it transfered at
facilities of good quality because of the cost.

Post by **super8man** » Sat May 12, 2007 3:30 am

Shooting reversal allows me to internalize the telecine cost. With negative, I am not only unable to view the film, I am also unable to "practically" transfer it.

And yeah, I recall the white specs on the blue sky and other areas so it was ALWAYS visible - with black specs, they don't register mentally in the same manner.

Post by **Justin Lovell** » Sat May 12, 2007 6:22 am

The telecine isn't always to blame for the specs... check the quality control of the labs.

I've scanned some 16mm color neg processed at different labs, and the results have been night and day. One was riddled with specs, the other had next to none.

Post by **woods01** » Sat May 12, 2007 8:25 pm

jusetan wrote:The telecine isn't always to blame for the specs... check the quality control of the labs.

Well my only experience with negative S8 telecine was done by you

It was peppered with dirt while the 16mm I sent you (which was prepped
for telecine once upon a time before I ran it through a projector for an
art show) looked acceptable.

I did complain to Niagra Lab about it but in retrospect I realized I never
asked for it to be cleaned and prepped for telecine. I had just assumed it
was part of the deal.

Post by **Angus** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:48 pm

The black specks are much less distracting to me.

Partly because I am more used to them...as every film projected can get dust whether it originated on neg or reversal.

And because the white specks are obviously noticable in dark areas of the frame and I just find that more distracting than dark specks in a light area.

But whatever the colour, we should strive to have as few specks as possible!

Post by **teadub** » Sun May 13, 2007 1:53 am

agreed, i am more used to black specs too. from watching dirty prints at the theatre.

Post by **Justin Lovell** » Mon May 14, 2007 3:09 am

woods01 wrote:
jusetan wrote:The telecine isn't always to blame for the specs... check the quality control of the labs.
Well my only experience with negative S8 telecine was done by you
It was peppered with dirt while the 16mm I sent you (which was prepped
for telecine once upon a time before I ran it through a projector for an
art show) looked acceptable.

I did complain to Niagra Lab about it but in retrospect I realized I never
asked for it to be cleaned and prepped for telecine. I had just assumed it
was part of the deal.

Regardless of whether it is prepped for telecine or not, the 16mm and super 8mm that I've gotten from NCL both had specs on them. However the 16mm neg I had processed and prepped at Deluxe (Toronto) was virtually spotless when I transferred it here.

Unfortunatly, NCL being the 'artist's lab' and also being one of the only labs running s8 in canada, they still don't get the volume of work to keep the tanks in tip top shape.

Post by **Mitch Perkins** » Mon May 14, 2007 8:11 am

jusetan wrote:
Unfortunatly, NCL being the 'artist's lab' and also being one of the only labs running s8 in canada, they still don't get the volume of work to keep the tanks in tip top shape.

Judging from the "weddings on neg" stuff I've transfered, it's way better when you have multiple rolls, cuz the specks are worst at the head and tail - a common phenomenon with dust on film in general - so if you send in ten rolls, all the ones in the "middle" are fairly speck-free.

Who knows, yours may be the only rolls they process that day (volume, as Justin points out), so if you only send in two, they're more likely to be specky.

Possibly stupid idea - send them a couple of thirty foot lengths of leader and ask them to keep them and tack them onto the head and tail of your one or two rolls each time?

Also, I haven't been able to transfer a single roll of Super 8 neg without the wet-gate - it just seems to be a real dust magnet compared to reversal.

Mitch

Post by **matt5791** » Mon May 14, 2007 11:30 pm

Personally I find white specs more distracting and I think tend to show more easily.

Post by **woods01** » Mon May 14, 2007 11:51 pm

Mitch Perkins wrote:Judging from the "weddings on neg" stuff I've transfered, it's way better when you have multiple rolls, cuz the specks are worst at the head and tail - a common phenomenon with dust on film in general - so if you send in ten rolls, all the ones in the "middle" are fairly speck-free.

Interesting theory, I only sent them one cartridge as it was a test of both
the stock and of Justin's ability to transfer neg with a workprinter. While
those passed my review I didn't expect the lab to be the weak link. Its
pretty dissapointing, while I the test reel turned out better than I hoped,
I'm reluctant to use NCL for anything important.

Post by **Mitch Perkins** » Tue May 15, 2007 12:39 am

woods01 wrote:
Mitch Perkins wrote:Judging from the "weddings on neg" stuff I've transfered, it's way better when you have multiple rolls, cuz the specks are worst at the head and tail - a common phenomenon with dust on film in general - so if you send in ten rolls, all the ones in the "middle" are fairly speck-free.
Interesting theory,

Sure, I figure that's one of the reasons you get so many feet of leader on a 16mm roll from the lab - damage prevention, but also removing content as far as possible from the most handled parts of the print.

woods01 wrote:I only sent them one cartridge as it was a test of both
the stock and of Justin's ability to transfer neg with a workprinter.

Oh yeah, Justin can transfer negs with a workprinter! (As you note below).

woods01 wrote:While those passed my review I didn't expect the lab to be the weak link. Its pretty dissapointing, while I the test reel turned out better than I hoped, I'm reluctant to use NCL for anything important.

Sebastian's a top-notch guy - I think it's worth laying it out straight; "I want to give you this work - what kind of quality guarantee can you give me?" type of thing.

Mitch

Post by **Justin Lovell** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:22 am

Mitch Perkins wrote:

woods01 wrote:I only sent them one cartridge as it was a test of both
the stock and of Justin's ability to transfer neg with a workprinter.
Oh yeah, Justin can transfer negs with a workprinter! (As you note below).

Sebastian's a top-notch guy - I think it's worth laying it out straight; "I want to give you this work - what kind of quality guarantee can you give me?" type of thing.

Mitch

Mild Correction: I started out on a Workprinter and have since upgraded. I'm using a DV8 SNIPER with some modifications and an extra davinci type color corrector.

Also, I have to agree with your statement about 'quality guarantee'.
Though I just ran 4 reel of 500t for a TV series and it looked pretty friggin good.

To the best of my knowledge, he's not as busy right now because most of the student work isn't coming in. HOWEVER, maybe that is why things are looking cleaner?

I've got another 40 rolls of s8 neg to send over there... hoping for the best?