News on Nikon R-10 and pressure Plate

[christoph]

hello world,

as said i wrote to the constructor of the pressure plate about the problems with the R-10 and got the following reply (in german, translations follows below):

danke für Ihre Nachricht, die in dem Super 8 Forum beschriebenen Probleme sind m.E. falsch. Der zweite Greifer ist ein sogenannter Schleppgreifer, (kein Sperrreifer) der im selben Schlitz zweite Pin wird bei Betätigung des Umschalters RE (Rückwärts) rausgeschoben.
Dieser unterstützt beim Rückwärtslauf den Filmtransport. Beide Pinne stossen m.E. immer auf die Kassetteneigene Platte, somit natürlich auch auf meine eingelegte Präzisionsandruckplatte. Ich werde zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt in dem o.a. Forum Stellung nehmen.
Da ich keine Englischkenntnisse habe, muss ich leider meine Schriftstücke erst immer Übersetzen lassen was manchmal sehr lange dauert.
Ich währe dankbar, wenn jemand von den Filmfreunden mir bei der Übersetzung Hilfestellung leisten könnte. 

Gruss  Gofffried Klose

translation by me:

thanks for your message, the problems described in the mentioned forum are incorrect imo. the second pin is a so-called drag-pin (not a lock-pin [=registration pin,editors note]) the second pin in the same slot [editors note: i'm not quite sure if the "drag-pin" is the transport pin or if there are 3 pins in the R-10 since i never had one] will be slided-out on engaging the RE (reverse) switch.
this pin supports the film transportation on reverse mode. imo, both pins will hit the built-in pressure plate of the cartrige all the time, thus naturally also my inserted precision plate. i'll take position in the forum later on. as i don't speak english, i have to get my text translationed, which sometimes takes a lot of time untill done.
i'll be grateful if somebody of the film lovers could be of assistence here.
greetings Gofffried Klose

i offered my services as a translator (although my english is not perfect by all means) to help to clear things up

let me know if you have any further questions (or if any of the translation seems to be weird)
++ christoph ++

edit: i've thought about the subject for some more and it occured to me that it could be that there are in fact two transport pins (one forward, one reverse) and no registration pin in the R-10.. can somebody try to verify this?

[S8 Booster]

This information is at least partially incorrect. It is easy to verify it by pushing a white leader (easier to see what happens) over the gate/stop pin to verify that it actually works as a stop pin. You can hear and see that it sounds like a "machine gun fire" when it slips in and out of the perfs and feel the force it hold the film in place with.

It is spring force activated. It holds the film in place firmly when the pin is allowed to penetrate the perf. When the advance claw overpowers the film it overpowers the hold force of the stop pin and advances to the next perf where the stop pin pops out to stabilise the next frame (by the end stroke of the frame advance by the advance claw.

If the pin were for reverse filming, being rounded off on the top and NOT being allowed to penetrate the film because it meets the original pressure plate I would like to see it being able to move the film backwards. It is next to impossible or at least unreliable.

Secondly, if it was for reverse film only it would have been better off being retracted when the film is run in normal mode - forward.

It can have both functions though.

One possible explanation - considering if the pin meets the original pressureplate is that it [the original plate] may have been altered some time between the intro of the R10 and now.

To sum up there is no doubt that the stop pin [also described as a intelligent follower] will have a better potential to work as a stop pin or even a backwards filming claw if it is allowed to pentetrate the film properly with or without the Frame Master.

R

[christoph]

so, we are only talking about 2 pins in total then, right?

i'll contact mr. klose and tell him about your findings
++ christoph ++

[aj]

This is a scan from the R8/R10 repair manual. It shows a 'regular' claw for up and down movement. And a set of two arresting pins somewhat below the exposureframe who go in and out off the perforation holes to force alignment of the frame on the film and make sure that the film stays completely still at the time of exposure.



That is probably why a R10 shoots such sharp images. Euh, besides the quality of the lens... Who needs a Euro 180,- pressure plate on this camera?

[Henry]

Hi,
I agree with Andre : You don`t need a pressure plate when shooting with the Nikon R 10 ! This camera has special bridges around the exposureframe . The result is a similar effect like the pressure plate.
Best regards
henry

[Ugo]

Dear friends,
One of my friends and I tested the PP on the two Nikon R10. It is not correct to say the Nikon doesn't need the PP.... the problem is that on the Nikon the PP DOESN'T WORK properly! I think when you use the PP on this camera you lost the factory regulation of the lens on the camera. Probalbly the PP changes the position of the film-plane. Anyway the result is orrible!

[aj]

You missed the point. The images are already exceptionally good so you do not need this thing. You are not going to gain from it. :!:

Also, it is not a requirement for the camera (from the 70-ties) to be suitable for usage with a strange iron clump jammed into the cartridge where it does not belong (and not deemed essential for decades until now). :idea: If the clump does not fit it (the clump) needs redesigning. The camera is good as it is.

[christoph]

This is a scan from the R8/R10 repair manual. It shows a 'regular' claw for up and down movement. And a set of two arresting pins somewhat below the exposureframe who go in and out off the perforation holes to force alignment of the frame on the film and make sure that the film stays completely still at the time of exposure.

hmm.. seems that the two arresting pins you've mentioned are in fact for different things.. here's another mail i got from mr klose when i asked about the two/three pin issue... i've also sent him the observations of s8booster..

Der vordere (rechts) angeordnete einzelne Greifer ist für den
Filmtransport verantwortlich.
Auf der selben Ebene, auf der links Seite sind in einem Schlitz 2 Pins hintereinander angeordnet. Beide Pinne befinden sich im federnden Ruhestand. Der rechte Pin steht aus dem Schlitz hervor, der linke Pin ist zurückgesetzt. Beim Filmtransport wird der rechte vorstehende Pin durch das Preforationsloch federnd geschleppt. Er soll m.E. beim stillstand des Filmes, während der Belichtung ein zurückrutschen des Filmes verhindern.
Stelle ich nun den Umschalter an der Kamera, von VOR (Vorlauf) auf RE (Rücklauf) kommt der linke Pin hoch, und der rechte Pin setzt sich zurück. Somit arbeitet dieses System in umgekehrter Reihenfolge. Hierbei muss man bedenken das im Filmkanal ca. Dreihundertstel - 0,03mm Spiel während der Filmbelichtung vorhanden ist.
Eine Beschädigung der Pins ist mit oder ohne meiner eingelegten Präzisionsandruckplatte m.E. ausgeschlossen, denn sie liegen auch ohne meine Platte auf der Kassetteneigenen Platte auf.

translation:

"the single pin arranged to the front (right) is responsibe for the film transport. in the same layer to the left side, there are 2 more pins in one slot. both pins are in a state of suspension when not moving. the right pin stands out of the slot while the left one is rectracted. on transporting the film, the right one will be dragged under suspension through the perferation [editors note: this sentence is hard for me to translate, it basically means that the pin will give way when the film is advanced to the next perf]. imo it is used to keep the film from slipping back while the frame is exposed and the film is standing still.
if i switch the trigger from VOR (forward) to RE (reverse) the left pin will come up and the right pin will rectract. that way the system will work in the reverse order.
it has to be considered that in the filmcanal there's 0.03mm of leeway during exposure.
damaging the pins is imo not possible neither with or without my frame master pressure plate, because they will touch the cassette pressure plate anyway if there's frame master pp."

sorry for the rather clumsy translation, but i'm in the middle of a project and only have a few minutes time every evening to respond to the forum...

laters
++ christoph ++