Filming in a graveyard

[mattias]

in most countries you don't need location permissions to show your work, just to shoot it. if you shoot it guerilla style, easy in many cemeteries, and don't get caught you're probably fine. i can't see how a cemetery would bee different from say the subway, as long as you don't show the names on the stones or commit some crime related to what you're supposed to do to dead people i guess.

(we're also shooting one of those scenes this summer)

/matt

[hassan]

This is a really nice Victorian cemetery in Stoke Newington, North London - popular place for shooting music videos. http://www.abney-park.org.uk/

[gianni1]

North London Pinner has a picturesque cemetery....at the junction of Paines Lane and Leighton Avenue. It's a few minutes from the Kodak factory in Harrow....

google local map / aerial photo

My local cemetery is in the town centre, with a public sidewalk right through the middle, next to with it's own taxi stand and car park.

Gianni

[MovieStuff]

if you shoot it guerilla style, easy in many cemeteries, and don't get caught you're probably fine. i can't see how a cemetery would bee different from say the subway, as long as you don't show the names on the stones or commit some crime related to what you're supposed to do to dead people i guess.

I think the most fundamental difference is that a subway is owned by one entity while a cemetary is actually owned by hundreds, perhaps thousands of different entities. While it might be possible to negotiate permission with the subway authority before or after the fact, the cemetary doesn't really own the land that is in question. They only manage its upkeep and access for the owners, of which there are many. So the risk for the management is pretty high, in terms of being sued by multiple families if they feel their privacy or rights have been violated. And it doesn't really matter if their privacy or rights were really violated or not. Just the possibility of having to defend against multiple legal actions and the bad press it would generate is enough to make most any cemetary management say "no" and not budge. I know when we shot, the official word was that we did not actually have permission. So if the management got sued, they would claim we did this on our own and were tresspassing. Since it was that or nothing, we agreed and just made sure we did not show any names or walk on any gravesites. It's actually far more complicated to get legal permission than it seems because of all the different entities involved. At least that was my experience here in the U.S.

Roger

[JCook]

Last month I spent at least ten minutes shooting 35mm slides and super 8 in a small reformed Lutheran German cemetery in Shepherdstown WV.

My great++++great Grand Parents are buried there, 1780 on Grandpa's headstone a few years after that on Great Grandmas and later one of their sons in the early 1800s.

I was in the graveyard a good 10 to 15 minutes with both cameras in hand, I don't think anyone even noticed my presence and I sure was not thinking along the lines implied in this thread that this could have been trouble, never even crossed my mind.

I suppose you could always try offering the vicker a cash offering for a few moments of solitude in the cemetery....if the cash doesn't work offer to buy him a beer later and tell him what you're up to.

[Andersens Tears]

Generally, I've found that if you ask, the answer is 'no'. At least in the US. Content has nothing to do with it; people are simply so lazy and afraid of litigation that they have no incentive to permit any sort of activity on their property.

Ok Evan, that's fair enough, but I'm in the UK and generally the answer has been yes. I agree that it's been some 8 years since I last shot anything in a graveyard, and things might have changed.

I still recommend asking first though.

[mattias]

I think the most fundamental difference

i fully agree. i was talking about shooting without permission. while not legal once you get away with it you're ok, unlike some things where you need a release to legally use the material and show the film.

/matt

[MovieStuff]

I think the most fundamental difference

i fully agree. i was talking about shooting without permission. while not legal once you get away with it you're ok.....

But my point is that you really aren't okay unless you take steps to avoid the names on the grave markers. Imagine that you do a dolly shot with your actor in the foreground and marker after marker visible and readable behind them as they walk along. Just because you get out of there without being seen or caught is kind of academic if you are essentially creating your own incriminating photographic evidence that you were trespassing on the private property of dozens of families! Yikes! If the film ever was shown in public and each of those families got pissed, you'd risk more than just the management of the cemetary suing you. You'd possibly have as many families after you as there were readable grave markers passing by the lens of the camera. As I say, the land in question doesn't belong to the management but to the families of the deceased. I agree that most likely people would not care. I am just talking about the potential risk of shooting in a graveyard, even if you "get away", as compared to other locations.

Roger

[mattias]

But my point is that you really aren't okay unless you take steps to avoid the names on the grave markers.

yes, i believe i made that point too in my original post. ;-)

/matt

[MovieStuff]

But my point is that you really aren't okay unless you take steps to avoid the names on the grave markers.

yes, i believe i made that point too in my original post. ;-)

Ah! Quite right. Sorry. Missed that.

Roger

[Mogzy]

Thing is what would the families be suing FOR? There has to be a legal basis for an action. People cannot just "sue" because they're cheesed off about something- and realistically this is not something most people would even contemplate this is Britain not the US!

Would I be correct in assuming Angus is looking to ask in the name of common courtesy, not fear of getting sued (which, we are led to believe, terrifies all citizens of the land of the free on a daily basis)?

Unless you were trespassing on the land owned by the family (i.e. actually standing on a grave) I doubt there would be anything a family could do under English law because the grave appears in a film- its like catching someone's house in a film from the public highway- there's nothing they could do! (I speak as a law student myself).

If there isn't a notice saying "No filming/ photography" etc it is safe to assume you cannot get into trouble for it.

[Taqi]

Whilst I agree with Mogzy in that there has to be some cause of action for anyone to sue, I would exercise some caution as there may be specific regulations which should be considered - in the case of Council owned / operated graveyards there is the Local Authorities Cemeteries Order 1977 which governs, amongst other things, conduct in cemeteries and contains provisions allowing for summary conviction and fines where those regulations are breached. I am not familiar with church regulations but there may well be similar provisions.

I would seek permission from the relevant authority first, particularly if using significant amounts of equipment - eg tripods, multiple cameras. lighting etc.

[MovieStuff]

Thing is what would the families be suing FOR? There has to be a legal basis for an action. People cannot just "sue" because they're cheesed off about something-

Frivolous lawsuits are what clog most of the dockets, I'm afraid. But, in this case, the issue is trespassing and violation of privacy. That it is a piece of property owned by someone other than the film maker is still the central issue. If this were a car and not a grave, permission would still be needed to photograph it and use it commercially in a film.

...and realistically this is not something most people would even contemplate this is Britain not the US!

The U.K. has its share of barristers, too. People can sue for anything. Whether they think they can win or not is usually secondary. Lawsuits are more about causing inconvenience and cost for the other party than about justice.

Unless you were trespassing on the land owned by the family (i.e. actually standing on a grave) I doubt there would be anything a family could do under English law because the grave appears in a film- its like catching someone's house in a film from the public highway- there's nothing they could do! (I speak as a law student myself).

Well, I'm not a law student but I'm pretty sure that you're off point on this. If someone is making a documentary as described above, then you are are correct. But if someone is making a commercial narrative film, then I can shut down anyone photographing my house, even if they do it from the road, and I can successfully sue anyone that did use imagery of my house in a commercial film without my permission, at least here in the US. I would be surprised if British law is any different but I could be wrong.

If there isn't a notice saying "No filming/ photography" etc it is safe to assume you cannot get into trouble for it.

Even in a documentary, if it can be proven that the property could have been avoided and the owner objected, odds are that the owner would win in court. My late father worked in news and they ran into that all the time and news cameramen still catch flack for it. "Fair use" isn't a catch-all for sloppy pre-pro and lack of permission. Even in documentaries, fair use really only applies to something that could not be avoided, such as commercial music playing in the background of an interview that had to take place in a specific location. To clandestinely enter private property such as as cemetary, shoot a commercial film, and then claim "fair use" of the footage obtained would make most any judge laugh. And, again, the fear of spending money to defend themselves in a lawsuit, even successfully, is what would make most cemetaries refuse to cooperate. Who needs the hassle? They'll just say "no". And since they'd say no, it can be easily proven that you weren't supposed to be there, thus the footage could be jeopardized. It would be very foolish to assume one would not get in trouble if caught.

Roger

[Taqi]

There is no law of privacy in the UK, and unless you can prove nuisance or raise a cause of action under the law of confidence and/or harassment etc, you would not be able to prevent someone filming your house (as many celebrities find out on a weekly basis..). The law in the UK is very different from that in the US in this regard - hence in this instance I would suggest that the primary area of risk is not from the families (unless you damaged the graves etc) but from the authorities who have, as I said in my previous post, specific recourse to criminal sanctions. I do not necessarily agree that they will give you a blanket no, as this must be a common request for them - more likely they will ask for detailed plans / schedule etc then charge a fee.... which is fair enough imo.

[MovieStuff]

There is no law of privacy in the UK, and unless you can prove nuisance or raise a cause of action under the law of confidence and/or harassment etc, you would not be able to prevent someone filming your house (as many celebrities find out on a weekly basis..).

I am quite sure that if you tried to set up your camera in front of anyone's house, celebrity or not, and started shooting a commercial film without their permission, you'd be stopped if they called the authorities.

The law in the UK is very different from that in the US in this regard - hence in this instance I would suggest that the primary area of risk is not from the families ....

Yeah, that's what I used to incorrectly believe, too. I learned otherwise when trying to get permission (and being turned down) to shoot in dozens of cemetaries. After consulting with an attorney, I found the primary risk is from the property owners, which are the families of the deceased. They own the property; not the cemetary management.

I do not necessarily agree that they will give you a blanket no, as this must be a common request for them - more likely they will ask for detailed plans / schedule etc then charge a fee.... which is fair enough imo.

Again, the cemetary just manages the property for the families and keep the grounds, grants access, etc. Perhaps in the UK cemetary management has more power but here in the US, the management has no authority to allow a commercial film crew to shoot the headstones and graves of their clients. Cemetaries are considered to be sacred, private areas, not a shopping mall parking lot.

Roger