moral dilema!!! film is beautiful, but...

[Chris Lynch]

I've been living an increasingly vegan lifestyle for the past year or so, always learning something new as I go. I've found none of it to be a sacrifice until now. I just learned that all film and even photographic paper is made with gelatin, which is made by boiling cow bones, skin, tendons, and hooves.

There are alternatives (agar agar, derived from seaweed is one of them), but no one will manufacture film that way because of higher cost. Corporate greed leaves no room for art. None of the information I've found so far says how much more it would cost, but I'd pay just about anything for an alternative that will let me stay true to my ideals AND enjoy the beauty of film. Until something else is available, I'll put my plans on hold and start pricing mini-DV cams. I've been so fixated on film that I'm tempted to just give up the whole thing.

I'd love to know if anyone has more information than I've been able to find about this, or any comments at all are welcome. If you're nice to me I might give you a deal on my Nizo!

Thanks,

-Chris

[David M. Leugers]

I'd thought I'd heard it all. Not shooting film because gelatin comes from cows, wow! Give it up. While your at it, give up Jello and any gelatin capsules of medicine you may need. I guess if you had your way, we would not use cows for any purpose. Of course, cows would become extinct pretty quick because they can not take care of themselves, no one in their right mind would pay the fortune it takes to feed and care for them, they make horrible pets, etc. If you do not want to eat meat, knock yourself out. I believe God puts many things on this earth for the benefit of man, including cows. Of all the advancements of the 20th century, one of the greatest and most profound effects was that for the first time in the history of mankind a visual record of events could be made for all to see and to analyze. Motion pictures have been called the greatest art form ever known to man. Film is an art form, it is recorded history, all because of the lowly cow. My advice is to sell your camera and withdraw into the shrinking world you're creating for yourself by limiting yourself to what things God has put here for your use. I respect your right to do so. Good luck and God bless you.

[crimsonson]

" I believe God..."

And others believe something else. Respect that as they would respect yours. There was no point in berating his ideals to conform to yours. If you don't think it was worth his time to pursue, you could have suggested so, instead of going on an offensive. Is the ideals so threatning?
Not everyone believe in God, red meat or Red, White and Blue.
He/she wanted an alternative if one existed.


"withdraw into the shrinking world you're creating for yourself "

Would you have suggested the same to Jesus and his lonely 12 followers?


sheez.


Unfortunately, Kodak is really the only game in town. There are some European/Russian based films you can order online - I think. But I doubt they would conform to your standards.

[Guest]

Sounds like this thread will go nowhere fast. My opinion. Film made from organics like cow versus harvesting the oceans versus electronic film media made by a chemist in a lab. I'll take the leftovers recycled from the cows carcus over the products produced by a chemist in a lab. At least the film will not likely become such a high volume hazardous waste in 30 years as all the plastic in the world. Can you say the same for electonic analog & digital media (recycling doesn't happen enough to hardly mention). Film from plant life affects the animal life directly as well. Believe whatever you all wish. I doubt there is a right answer for this discussion. I predict lots of banter worse than this paragraph. Is there a film not made with animal byproducts in the film industry. I'd hedge a bet and say that someone has produced something with a chemistry set somewhere for the film industry, but probably not in 8mm format, and probably not as good (I should add the word "yet"). How much harm will be done to the animal life in the oceans when you harvest the plant life that the ocean critters feed upon to make the film the way your ideals desire. Vegetarianism is rather short sighted (and I can say that since I tried being strictly vegan in diet and otherwise myself). I found that it was a contradiction in ideals versus real life more often than not. I stopped buying synthetic shoes and clothing (where do you take them to recycle?, and they don't last nearly as long as my leather shoes). yes, I now have leather boots and shoes and a leather belt. I got tired of throwing away things that would never decompose in my lifetime or the generations to come. I buy animal based products again (it's more planet & plant friendly than life with modern chemistry). Harvesting the oceans for plant life is no better alternative to harvesting animal life. It all affects the animal population eventually. I use film, cow or no cow. When I think about my current and former vegan ideals, I prefer using the cow to plastics, electronics, and ocean harvests. It's easy to think that ocean harvests to make film is more friendly than hacking at a cow (out of sight underwater does not mean that the animal life under water is not affected by your ideals). A dead cow made into film is much more environment friendly than the alternatives (even to this former Vegan). Lifes full of compromises. Your ideals will hinder you the rest of your life. You are at the top of the food chain, deal with it, get over it.

[Guest]

Seems from working in electronics that electronic media has more components hazardous to the environment than an old film camera (developing included). Can't say much about film made from seaweed. But as stated above in sorts, it seems to be blind man's bluff hidden under the ocean (what you can't see being hurt is still being hurt if you only stick your head in the water to look).
Never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. I work in electronics, so I know how hard it can be to dispose of the computers, VCR's, CRT tubes, ect. when they are no longer useable. They are nasty to the environment. Life with modern man made materials is a throw away society. I'll stick to film for most of my work. I'm no Veggie eater, I like animals, but I think a person needs to be true to themselves. I have no appreciation for animal rights nuts, but the question seems to be about film material alternatives. I'll just plain ignore the options and continue as I have with film the way it is. I like it the way it is now.

[Guest]

While we're on the subject of humanitarianism, why don't we discuss those cheap electronic devices you treasure? Yeah, that DV cam that you hold so dearly. Have you ever thought about where that camera came from? Chances are, a good majority of the components were produced by children exploited in sweat shops in China. Or how about the fact that the very food you eat wreaks havoc on the local environment from which it is grown? All of those pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers have to go somewhere. Or how about the millions of pounds of soot that is pumped into the lovely blue infinity of the atmosphere that blankets our existence? Or how about the scarring of the surface of our planet by the mining that is essential to these processes? Or how about all of the animals that are needlessly killed by these common industrial processes? Or how about your home that is framed by timber? Or how about the byproduct of our information revolution? All of those computer products are hazardous wastes with a high content of poisonous materials such as lead that leeches into the groundwater. Or how about the fabrication of the IC's in these electronics that are absolutely devastating to the environment? There's untold millions of pounds of these caustic chemicals that are used. This list could go on, but in the interest of brevity and in the assumption that you're getting the point, I'll end it here. Your efforts, if they are indeed sincere, are futile in the grand scheme of things. The cows will die anyhow and are not harvested merely for their bones. That is, again, assuming this isn't some lame attempt at being different, or more politically acceptable. Go ahead, make non-points about non-issues.

[MovieStuff]

And a Merry Christmas to everyone. Wow, where's all the humbuggery coming from?

Chris, I admire your principles but the extreme to which you are concerned flies in the face of other problems against nature that you apparently are ignoring. For instance, the plastics in the very computer you use to relay your concerns is a major cause of air pollutants and harm to both plant and animal life the world over. Further, plastics are not biodegradable and clog landfills. And while I do not have any documentation to back this up, I am fairly certain that cows are not killed JUST so film can be made but, rather, their byproducts are harvested as part of the food chain cycle. You may choose to be a vegetarian (I was also for a while) but even if everyone were a vegetarian, the cows would die from neglect. So, ultimately, the cows are gonners. Personally, I can think of no better way to cap a hard day of shooting on real film than with a well done T-bone steak. Seems like a kind of ying-yang thing to me!

Anyway, your principles are admired (at least by me) but I simply would not worry about things you can not change. Shoot film. Eat beef. It's what's for dinner and a movie!

Merry Christmas!
Roger

[crimsonson]

Happy Holidays too all.

Sheez. Is this what you have to go through Chris in a regular day? You asked for a film alternative - they offer a lifestyle cahnge. Admiration....

How about this guys....???

You will never be Speilberg, Godards, and Kar-Wai s. Its moot. Super 8 is dead 20 years ago. Video is here. In fact digital video. Let it go. Its pointless.
Christianity is dead. Its 2000 years old and man will never change. Each one of us have done at least one evil deed [reallistcally a lot more than that]. We are not going to heaven. So why even bother.

Super 8 Christian filmmakers - how lame.

[Guest]

I think the point made is not a lifestyle change, but an obvious compromise. The film product desired is not available, so use what is available. As for 8mm being dead, seems odd you are hear talking about it, people are using it everyday. It's dead only because the majority are too lazy to use it, or too needy to wait for developing. It's an instant gratification society (quick and easy, no skill required). Those DV cams will fade away as well when technology changes. As for christianity being dead 2000 years (what hole is your head stuck in that you don't see all the churches all over the planet and religion(s) in the news every day). As for the original poster of this thread. Don't take it too hard, it's just some others opinions and suggestions. Do what you feel is right by you. You'll probably be in the minority most of the time, but it's still what you do for yourself that is important for you.

[Nigel]

I think that you could make an exception when it comes to film. I am friends with a very "good" vegan. She is very strict when it comes to everything--Except film. She is a professional photographer and can't stand the look of digital. I say just roll with it until a good alternative shows up.

Good Luck

[Split8mm]

None of the information I've found so far says how much more it would cost, but I'd pay just about anything for an alternative that will let me stay true to my ideals AND enjoy the beauty of film.

That was great!!!! But where are the funny emoticons?

[crimsonson]

Do what you feel is right by you. You'll probably be in the minority most of the time, but it's still what you do for yourself that is important for you.

I was being sarcastic. Maybe it was too thick to swim thru?
People seems to be more preoccupied [threatened?] with his/her lifestyle than the question at hand. Others wants the individual to think LIKE them. If others was just laissez fair about it as you are, everyone would have a Merrier Christmas.

Instead of helping a fellow film user to maintain his Super 8 support, we berate them to submission. Good work, he is probably putting on his running shoes to his local DV store. What is more important in this forum - Every member to be carnivorous or share Super8 knowledge?


Second these quotes hardly suggest compromise...

"Your ideals will hinder you the rest of your life. You are at the top of the food chain, deal with it, get over it."

"some lame attempt at being different, or more politically acceptable. Go ahead, make non-points about non-issues."



"It's dead only because the majority are too lazy to use it, or too needy to wait for developing. It's an instant gratification society (quick and easy, no skill required). "


Great - you counter my sarcasm with a vague generalization.
I see as much out of focus and improperly exposed S8 footage as DV.

[digvid]

Egads! This has become a nasty thread. Why don't we retire it?

[Billbot]

Chris, I think it is ok for you to use film if your work is in service of what you consider your "higher-power".

Consider this; hindu's use rabbit skin glue to size canvases that are to be used for religious/spiritual paintings. Hare Krishna's sometimes wear leather shoes, because they must walk around spreading the words of their spiritual leader. Although these people are vegetarians, not vegans, the point is the same.

We have to be practical and live in the modern world. Also, the point of being a vegetarian or vegan is about your own conciousness, and your own awareness; not the mere fact that you didn't eat or use animal products. It's about what's in your heart and your respect toward all living things.

Remember, all life is sacred; even simple plant life. To destroy anyting living is a sin, but; it is relative. To kill an Elephant is a much greater sin than to kill a blade of grass. But, they are both sins against the sanctity of life. It must all be balanced with living a rightous and practical life in this world.

Remember, being detached and free from the false ego is the most important goal. Don't let self-rightous thinking interfere with that.

No go shoot some film and thank God that you can enjoy such a great pleasure!!

[S8 Booster]

Are you sure that film is made from or has a high content of gelatine?

Fuji film base at least (the non polyester ones) seem to be based on cellulose triacetate which is a product from the trees.
http://www.forestinfo.org/Discover/fromtree.htm

Search page for "cellulose triacetate" and you will find:
"cellulose triacetate (photo film substrate and specialty textile fibers)"

All "´isms" will bite its tail into a deadlock.
If all of us take a little step in the right direction to improve this world it will progress.
Man needs more than just organic food to survive todays world.
Shooting film is a true art that develops our imagination.
Stop shooting amateur film will make no difference at all.
Joy shoot!

(Polyester: (Polyethylene Naphthalate). http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/polyester.htm , http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/polyester-form.htm )

R - From The Land Of Whale Killers.