Do you think Kodak will ever lower the price of film

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etimh
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Post by etimh »

tlatosmd wrote:Tim, your latest reasoning seems like the basic logical difference between 'same' and 'identical' to me.

Two twins can be identical. But they physically can't be the same.
Well, this is an interesting philosophical puzzle (or problem perhaps) that you present, but its actually a little bit simpler than that.

With film and digital imaging we have two objects of different classes, with unique physical properties, that exhibit disctinctly different functional attributes and resultant effects. Much different than comparing logical difference in the case of twins.

Tim
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Post by carlweston »

etimh wrote:
MovieStuff wrote: But aren't you also speculating about what digital will fail to achieve?
No.
MovieStuff wrote: Your obvious passion for film notwithstanding, why is your speculation somehow more valid than his?
Because, electronic image capturing CANNOT (do you understand the word CANNOT?) ever ever ever ever ever ever ever duplicate the recording of the physical world in the same way that film does.

Its physics, for pete's sake. The chemical imaging of film and the pixellated imaging of electronic imaging are not the same thing. They do not work the same way. The resulting recorded images are of a fundamentally different NATURE. Thus the eye/body/mind of the human organism does not process the information the same way.

No matter how "close" digital video gets in "emulating" film, "replicating" film, or "looking like film," it will never BE film. I know that on the surface this statement would seem to be so self-evident that the need to state it verges on the absurd. But people fail over and over to EXTRAPOLATE the results and consequences of this absurdly obvious statement of fact. Electronic imaging can never be film thus it will never be able match film.

That is why my statements are not speculations but assertions of fact, based on the essential laws of physics and physiology.

But I do agree with you, and the many others who have stated similar sentiments--all digital imaging has to be is "good enough" to satisfy the indiscrimate hoards who have neither the desire nor training to tell the difference. It will come down to economic viability, as you said, and I have no doubt that digital technologies will be able to comptete in this regard.

Tim
“Essential laws of physics and physiology” Please submit some scientific and or engineering writings on this topic. You clearly have access to some studies I haven’t had the privilege to read. Your words are what they are …..Words. In the world I live in these technical problem can be solved.
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Post by MovieStuff »

etimh wrote: electronic image capturing CANNOT (do you understand the word CANNOT?) ever ever ever ever ever ever ever duplicate the recording of the physical world in the same way that film does.
But this is like saying that dicing a tomato with a knife by hand is different than dicing a tomato automatically with a blender. Technically that may very well be true and there is no viable way to argue the point otherwise. But so what? If the tomato ends up tasting the same to the average person, then you are making a distinction without a difference in regard to how the tomato was diced because the dicing of the tomato is only a small part of the overall recipe.
etimh wrote:Its physics, for pete's sake.
No, it's about asthetics, not physics. The result is what matters, not the mechanism used to achieve the result, because the mechanism changes continually. The "look" of film that audiences see today is totally different than the "look" of film audiences saw 30 years ago. Older Kodachrome II doesn't look like modern Kodachrome and Kodachrome doesn't look like negative and Kodak negative doesn't look like Fuji negative, etc. In fact, neither film nor video looks the same now as they did 30 years ago or even 10 years ago and we would not want them to. So as long as the audience is satisfied, it doesn't matter if the mechanism changes; in fact it is expected to. Thus, to say that digital will be able to emulate the look of film is not even remotely implying that it will do so using the same mechanism or that it's even required to for the "film look" to be valid because there are many, many looks of film. It merely has to satisify the needs of the audience to "see film" for the look to be valid, regardless of the mechanism employed.

Roger
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Post by Evan Kubota »

"Its physics, for pete's sake. The chemical imaging of film and the pixellated imaging of electronic imaging are not the same thing. They do not work the same way. The resulting recorded images are of a fundamentally different NATURE. Thus the eye/body/mind of the human organism does not process the information the same way."

They might be captured the same way, but it's absurd to claim that video will never be able to produce an image that is indistinguishable from film. You simply don't know. Note that I didn't say 'the same as,' but if it looked identical, you'd be foolish to spend money on stock and processing when the results would turn out the same on video - unless you just get a kick out of hearing the camera run, in which case you could just run it empty or with a dummy load.
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Post by MovieStuff »

Evan Kubota wrote: it's absurd to claim that video will never be able to produce an image that is indistinguishable from film. You simply don't know.
That was my original point. It is as much speculation to predict failure as it is to predict success but the trend I see suggests an eventual success sooner, rather than later.

Roger
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Post by carlweston »

Evan Kubota wrote:"Its physics, for pete's sake. The chemical imaging of film and the pixellated imaging of electronic imaging are not the same thing. They do not work the same way. The resulting recorded images are of a fundamentally different NATURE. Thus the eye/body/mind of the human organism does not process the information the same way."

They might be captured the same way, but it's absurd to claim that video will never be able to produce an image that is indistinguishable from film. You simply don't know. Note that I didn't say 'the same as,' but if it looked identical, you'd be foolish to spend money on stock and processing when the results would turn out the same on video - unless you just get a kick out of hearing the camera run, in which case you could just run it empty or with a dummy load.
Wow I’m not totally alone on this topic...
I do understand that I’m debating with people who simply don’t want this to happen even if it save money. Film cost so dam much.. I just hope one day for a real alternative...TIME WILL TELL
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Post by carlweston »

Every single aspect of the film experience will be emulated. The reward is going to be huge for who ever can get it done first. It will happen in stages, first in software an then real time in camera. But not tomorrow
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Post by MovieStuff »

etimh wrote: With film and digital imaging we have two objects of different classes, with unique physical properties, that exhibit disctinctly different functional attributes and resultant effects.
So you're saying that, because of these "unique physical properties" you can always tell the difference in a photo shot digitally and a photo shot on film?

Roger
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Post by carlweston »

Amongst my peers I have a reputation for getting video to look like film. I sit in front of programs like Combustion, FCP, Magic Bullet, for hours just tweaking to get a certain look. I just shot a music video out in Coney Island last weekend because of my reputation for getting “That Look”. A look that fools many working professionals...."Working Professionals" yes thats right.. I pay my rent doing this...
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Post by Actor »

Evan Kubota wrote:you'd be foolish to spend money on stock and processing when the results would turn out the same on video - unless you just get a kick out of hearing the camera run, in which case you could just run it empty or with a dummy load.
Or you enjoy the challenge of using and maintaining retro equipment and getting good results. After all, people spend small fortunes on Indian motorcycles and Dusenberg automobiles. They may be foolish but they're having too much fun to care.

Long after Kodak and Fuji have ceased to manufacture film there will be a select few who find a way to make their own.
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Post by BK »

reflex wrote:
synthnut wrote:Hey maybe I should spend 100 million making artificial apples tast like real apples...
If there is 200 or 300 million to be made, you can bet that someone will succeed in "wasting" 100 million to make artificial apples taste real.
It's only a matter of time.
Believe it or not, this is already happening in China where genetic modified food research is big business...these apples look pretty, smells like apples but it tastes really artificial compared to a USA Washington apple. I know because I was fooled and bought some from the local super market here in Hong Kong.

I agree that the film look will be emulated successfully using video one of these days, be it on camera or post processing and it's good news for the small productions with limited budget. For big budget projects it will still originate on film.

But why would an "electronic" medium want to emulate the qualities of "celluloid" in the first place? Why not just gives us super enhanced super sharp video images that is closer to real life instead? Is there something really about film?

Twenty odd years ago when the first home video cameras came out there was much talk about 8mm film going in 5 years or so, but it is still here today thanks to Kodak and Fuji. I certaintly aren't going to worry and have sleepless nights over it, film and video will stayed happily "married" for a long time yet.

Bill
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Post by Actor »

etimh wrote:Its physics, for pete's sake.
OK, let's talk physics.

Both film and video pass light through a lens producing an image on a sensitive medium (i.e., film or CCD). That image is described by three functions

R(x,y,t); G(x,y,t); B(x,y,t)

where

x,y are coordinates on the sensitive medium
t is time
R is the intensity of light over a small range of frequencies centered on the frequency where the average human is most sensitive to red light
G and B similarly defined for green and blue.

The purpose of film and video is record the functions R, G, B and to use that record to produce another image at time t' = t + T described by

R'(x',y',t') = k[R]R(x,y,t)

G'(x',y',t') = k[G]G(x,y,t)

B'(x',y',t') = kB(x,y,t)

where x',y' are the coordinates on the emitting medium.

and T is the length of time between the time the image is acquired and the time it is displayed.

Ideally k[R] = k[G] = k = constant.

But in practice

k[R] != k[G] != k and is not constant. (!= means not equal)

Not only not constant but functions of their respective indices.

k[R] = k(R); k[G] = k(G); k = k(B)

These three functions define "film look" and "video look."

Now engineers can either try to develop a system where k[video] is a constant, i.e., they can try to reproduce nature, or then can try to develop a system such that

k[film] - k[video] < S

where S is a value small enough that the human eye/brain cannot tell the difference.

If engineers can meet this challenge then they can produce video that cannot be distinguished from film.
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Post by carlweston »

there working on it right now....
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Post by Astro »

The Projected image is the testing ground. Digital Projection is not a problem but the original format in my view shines through.
I thought all the recent Star Wars movies looked like 'Mr Man Shit', flat stinking shit.
If Digital or HD want to take up the challenge then they need to be able to produce images as good and better than films like Days of Heaven, Taxi Driver, Godfather, BadLands, Texas Chain Saw Massacre.
Wolf Creek shot on HD looks like HD (a Hard Dump) and it can never compare to the Horror movies like Driller Killer, Dawn of the Dead etc.

Saying all this. I do expect that one day a format will come out that will replace film.

Something like liquid light imaging. I imagine everyone will want to shoot that. Film , Digital & HD will kiss it's ass. Now someones just got to invent it.

But it would make life so much easier if I could 'Dial a look' on my DV camera instead of waiting (Yawn) for my image to render in Final Cut.

Astro

:roll:
..partly truth, partly fiction, a walking contradiction.
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etimh
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Post by etimh »

carlweston wrote:there working on it right now....
Yeah, they're working on time travel too. :P

Tim
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