Kodak's current view on Vision 2 50D and Ektachrome 100D?

[super8man]

Jim's right...nuff said. :!:

And it is kind of funny imagining even maintaining support for HARDWARE that was last produced MORE THAN 25 years ago...think about the last time a computer software manufacturer supported anything past the beta testers...not very many.

Bottom line, to stay alive in this hobby, you need multiple cameras AND filmstock formats (single 8, regular 8, super 8) to keep your filmmaking endeavours going in this day and age...

Mike

But also we should be more selective in what we buy. The advantage with Super8 is that it is so easy to buy a camera for a dollar. The disadvantage of Super8 is that it is ALSO easy to buy a camera for a dollar. Maybe it is time (with E64T notching and some future 100D notch) to be more selective in what we buy, so that all these 40/160 TTL metering camera with no manual exposure can be relegated to the trash bin once and for all.

You realize the real thing to do is simply end the format entirely...Its a no win situation. There is no law saying you can't use an old camera unlike GM did with the EV1 since there was never any ownership (the cars were leased), the only solution is to get out of the super 8 biz and move on. The only reason these forums exist is due to people like us finding fixes for old machines. But, if the filmstock was cancelled, this site and any others would essentially stop functioning. Like remaining a member in a PC forum once you buy a Mac - ain't gonna survive.

Cheers,
Mike
:roll:

[Jim Carlile]

100d is an smpte standard notching, readable by most cameras. what's the problem?

It's not at all. It's only readable-- as part of the notchless method-- by SMPTE compatible cameras. After 1972 these were not as common as people think.

There is a specific ASA 100 notch size, but it's for tungsten film (100T/64D,) and is even less commonly read by cameras. It was an unusual film speed and few cameras made provisions for it.

as for the rest of your post, you're really starting to piss me off. i talk to kodak pretty much every week, like all professional filmmakers do, and now you're saying that a slot car collector's interpretation of a kodak pr guy's post on a web board is more credible? that's funny.

Hey, the last time I had a slot car was in 1967. It was an Asp. I had a Russkit controller, and used to go to the late, great Revell tracks here in L.A. (those were real slot cars.) So I don't know what you're talking about here...

Look, E 100D is problematical for Kodak. My point is: just how are they going to speed notch it? There are three ways:

1) They can speed notch it for ASA 160, and have a notchless cartridge.
2) They can speed notch it for 160, and have a filter notch,
3) They can speed notch it for ASA 100, and have a filter notch

There will be big complaints with each method.

If they do the first, only SMPTE compatible cameras will rate it at daylight 100 ASA. All others will rate it at 160.

If they do the second, all cameras will rate it at 160. If you accidentally put the filter in place (you will sometimes) the film will be ruined, and still rated at ASA 160 (not 100.) It will be underexposed for everybody (Angus, do you realize that that's what is happening?)

If they do the third, only a few cameras will rate it at the correct ASA 100. Most will rate it at 160, and that pesky 85 filter will still ruin many rolls. If they make it a notchless cartridge, many deluxe SMPTE cameras will rate the film at ASA 64, automatically.

So Kodak has to think about everyone, not just the manual exposure users. The technical problems with a daylight film rated at ASA 100-- that does not fit well within the limited super 8 system designed in 1963-- are far worse than those of a 64T film. At least there's a 64T speed notch!

If anything, I suspect that this is the main reaon why Kodak has decided not to release 100D. I could be wrong, but management critics opposed to it could easily point to the problems with 64T, and then say: 'imagine the consequences with this much odder film.'

I'd bet money that was the clincher. It's just too problematical, and the last thing they want to do is referee more complaints about what is in reality a fifty year old technology for them.

[Angus]

Now I remember reading somewhere that Kodak actually has a slide film that is 160T.....might it also be 100 in daylight?

Possibly grainy...but would it be a solution?

[VideoFred]

This is all very confusing for me. :roll:

I am ready to shoot my first Wittnerchrome 100D cardridge with my Canon 814 XL-S.

Wittner says I must switch off the build in filter. That's logical because this is a daylight film. But the Canon 814 manual says it does not matter for daylight film.. I think they mean the filter will be swithed off by the notches. But that was long ago. Do we have the same notching on the cartridges today?

What do you guys think? I think it won't harm if I switch off the the filter, no matter what.. Right? And is the 814 XL-S an SMPTE camera?

Fred.

[S8 Booster]

if cart is correctly notch the cam will "take it all" = disable the filter totally an set the speed to ISO 100

check the cart/notch info here:

Hi

which are the super 8 films compatible with Canon 1014 xl-s?

- WITTNERCHROME 40
- WITTNERCHROME 50
- WITTNERCHROME 100
- EKTACHROME 64 T
- TRI-X
- PLUS X
- VISION 2 - 200
- VISION 2 - 400
- VISION 2 - 500

Thank you

it should be set by default this way:

- WITTNERCHROME 40 -> 40/25 (tungsten / daylight incl the built in 85 filter)
- WITTNERCHROME 50 -> 40D
- WITTNERCHROME 100 -> 100D
- EKTACHROME 64 T = 64T
- TRI-X = 160 FOR DAYLIGHT
- PLUS X = 100 FOR DAYLIGHT
- VISION 2 - 200 = 100D unless the cart is modified
if the cart is moodified it is set to 160T/100D
- VISION 2 - 400 (is this available?) if yes = 400T for tungsten?
- VISION 2 - 500 = 250D unless the cart is modified
if the cart is modified it is set to 400T/250D

all of this can be compensated on this cam by +/- 1 full stop in 1/3 increments both ways.


how to modify your cartridges:

here is what you need to do to make the cam read the cart as 160/100:

this is where the filter notch is located - open it and the cam is allowed to read it as either 160 for tungetsen (when the built in 85 filter is disabled) or 100 with the filter in place for daylight shoot.

Click images for biger size:



how to mod and why:


s8hôôt

s8hôôt

[VideoFred]

Booster, thank you for the good info.
I begin to see the light. 8)

The Wittnerchrome 100D cartridge is very obvious daylight filter disabled.
The 64T cartridge daylight filter enabled of cource.

Anything else I should look at?
I can not wait to shoot something.
My dog.. where is my dog

Fred.

[S8 Booster]

verify the cartriges film speed notch size too:

http://super8wiki.com/index.php/Super_8 ... otch_Ruler

[Lunar07]

Look, E 100D is problematical for Kodak. My point is: just how are they going to speed notch it? There are three ways:

1) They can speed notch it for ASA 160, and have a notchless cartridge.
2) They can speed notch it for 160, and have a filter notch,
3) They can speed notch it for ASA 100, and have a filter notch

There will be big complaints with each method.

Jim -
This is no different from issues arising from E64T.
Kodak will notch 100D according to smpte specs - 0.5000 with no filter notch. That is all there is to it. You are making an issue where none exists. There are many many cameras that can read this notch. Even the 40/160 cameras can read it provided they have manual exposure.
Certainly, the fully automatic 40/160 cameras with no manual override can not read it. So what! Every camera with manual exposure override or -/+ correction can use 100D.
I fail to see your point.
What you fail to see is that Super8 does not end with a fully automatic 40/160 camera.

[Lunar07]

This is all very confusing for me. :roll:

I am ready to shoot my first Wittnerchrome 100D cardridge with my Canon 814 XL-S.

Wittner says I must switch off the build in filter.

Check the film compartment. Does it have a filter pin? If so, the cartridge itself will switch off filter while exposing at the lower end of the ASA which is 100D.
You are fine with your Canon.

[Lunar07]

Things are really not this bad. We have B/W carts. We have 200T and E64T carts. If Kodak releases 100D in carts, we are all set.
Why are you allowing a fully automatic 40/160 super8 camera to rule your life? :-D Things are fine.
There is no law stating that you can not use a certain old camera. So make your choice in what you buy count. We are lucky enough that we can get cameras for cheap. So maybe we should start being more selective in what old camera we can get.

Jim's right...nuff said. :!:

And it is kind of funny imagining even maintaining support for HARDWARE that was last produced MORE THAN 25 years ago...think about the last time a computer software manufacturer supported anything past the beta testers...not very many.

Bottom line, to stay alive in this hobby, you need multiple cameras AND filmstock formats (single 8, regular 8, super 8) to keep your filmmaking endeavours going in this day and age...

Mike

But also we should be more selective in what we buy. The advantage with Super8 is that it is so easy to buy a camera for a dollar. The disadvantage of Super8 is that it is ALSO easy to buy a camera for a dollar. Maybe it is time (with E64T notching and some future 100D notch) to be more selective in what we buy, so that all these 40/160 TTL metering camera with no manual exposure can be relegated to the trash bin once and for all.

You realize the real thing to do is simply end the format entirely...Its a no win situation. There is no law saying you can't use an old camera unlike GM did with the EV1 since there was never any ownership (the cars were leased), the only solution is to get out of the super 8 biz and move on. The only reason these forums exist is due to people like us finding fixes for old machines. But, if the filmstock was cancelled, this site and any others would essentially stop functioning. Like remaining a member in a PC forum once you buy a Mac - ain't gonna survive.

Cheers,
Mike
:roll:

[T-Scan]

If someone owns a camera that can not expose 100D, and PlusX, and 64T correctly... here is my advice: Load it with your last roll of K40, set the running lock (if it even has one) and drop it off a high rise bridge or building. Then harvest the K40 cart from the scrap pile of Sears camera parts, send it off... and find yourself one of about a million good old cameras left out there.

Even most of the 40/160 cameras that can't expose 64T will work with 100D... So the camera issue is moot when it comes to 100D. In fact, the majority of all cameras will expose 100D more accurately than 64T, TriX, 200T or 500T.

[Clapton Pond]

Rather than sit around agonising over whether my customers would be able to use a new film I'd produced, if I were the owner of a multinational film producing corporation, I'd buy several old cameras of several makes (apparently they're quite cheap on ebay...), test them with said new film and publish a handy users guide on my website, with instructions on the best way to expose the film in each camera.

It's not rocket science...

ian

[Jim Carlile]

Jim -
This is no different from issues arising from E64T.
Kodak will notch 100D according to smpte specs - 0.5000 with no filter notch. That is all there is to it. You are making an issue where none exists. There are many many cameras that can read this notch. Even the 40/160 cameras can read it provided they have manual exposure.

The difference between 64T and E100D is that with 64T, the worst that will happen is you'll be 2/3 stop overexposed. With 100D, you'll be 2/3 stop underexposed. That's much worse. So it's not the same problem at all.

There are a huge number of 40/160 XL cameras out there that will not run 100D correctly. Kodak has to think about that when determining what films they are going to offer. The problems of 64T pale in comparison to the problems that a 100D cartridge would give many users.

There aren't as many newer SMPTE cameras as one might think-- by 'newer' I mean made after about 1973 or so. Basically only the higher end models.

40/160 cameras are great-- no reason to throw them out. They'll run both Tri-X and VISION 200T correctly (at ASA 160.) That's better than what most SMPTE cameras will do!

This isn't my dilemma-- it's Kodak's. Look at the confusion over 64T. And that film actually has a specific speed indice available to it! Manual exposure isn't an option for many people.

My local camera store tells me that they often get oldtimers coming in for a roll or two of super 8-- grandmas, grandpas, whatever. They don't want underexposed film, either, taken indoors in low light.

The 814/1014 XLS are SMPTE cameras. They'll also read Tri-X correctly, because they can also read the ASA 250 speed-notch that Kodak sets it at, in order to comply with the SMPTE notchless cartridge standard for daylight film speeds. So the meter ends up reading the film as ASA 160.

[Juergen]

I asked Wittner for it. There is no problem in reality

Daylight material like Cinevia from GK-Film (Fuji Velvia 50 D) had a ASA/ISO 40 notch and no filter notch.

Wittnerchrome 100 D (Ektachrome 100D) is similar: ASA/ISO 100 notch, no fiter notch.

Wittner says that it is possible to have slight over- or underexposure with both film stocks depending on the camera but in fact both film stocks can handle with that. Please take into consideration that there are some other important factors: the exactness of the light meter (that might differ from the day it was built), the exactness of the processing...

98% of all results with Ektachrome 100 D are good, Wittner says.

Kodak Ektachrome 64T was far more a problem for a lot of cameras because they cannot read ASA/ISO 64 and Kodak brought this product into the market anymay. In reality we now can see, that the problems with cameras that can only read ASA/ISO 40 are very small - nearly no problems.

So, if Kodak decided to offer Ektachrome 64T I cannot see why they should not offer 100 D - there is no technical or marketing problem with it.

[Freya]

Jim -
This is no different from issues arising from E64T.
Kodak will notch 100D according to smpte specs - 0.5000 with no filter notch. That is all there is to it. You are making an issue where none exists. There are many many cameras that can read this notch. Even the 40/160 cameras can read it provided they have manual exposure.

The difference between 64T and E100D is that with 64T, the worst that will happen is you'll be 2/3 stop overexposed. With 100D, you'll be 2/3 stop underexposed. That's much worse. So it's not the same problem at all.

I think it's questionable which is worse. In theory it's better to underexpose reversal and overexpose negative. It should preserve more information, the trouble is that 2/3 of a stop might be a lot for reversal, and of course if you are planning to project your footage it might be better to overexpose it as you will get a brighter image, even if you lose a lot of detail and brightness can often be a problem with S8 projection.

I guess it's a matter of preferance and what you are doing.

For myself I just want 50d! :twisted:

love

Freya