Petition against K40 production stop

Post by **John_Pytlak** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:50 pm

The dilemma is that film is coated as 54-inch wide rolls up to 12,000 feet long. 10,000 cartridges per year isn't even up to a single roll yet. And even 100,000 cartridges is only a few rolls. Much easier to develop a business case when the film is also used in other formats.

Post by **kettuz** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:25 pm

Bit OT, but why exactly ektachrome 64T? Why not something else? I'm not judging the film stock here before seeing it, but it would be nice to know why exactly this stock was chosen to be the given in s8 -format.

Post by **John_Pytlak** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:45 pm

kettuz wrote:Bit OT, but why exactly ektachrome 64T? Why not something else? I'm not judging the film stock here before seeing it, but it would be nice to know why exactly this stock was chosen to be the given in s8 -format.

Kodak had discussions with numerous customers around the world last year (some from this forum participated), and several reversal film possibilities were discussed. As a low speed tungsten balance stock with good image structure (sharp, low graininess), E64T is the most "direct" replacement for K40. A daylight balance stock was also considered, and is still a possibility.

Post by **ccortez** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:16 pm

John_Pytlak wrote:
kettuz wrote:Bit OT, but why exactly ektachrome 64T? Why not something else? I'm not judging the film stock here before seeing it, but it would be nice to know why exactly this stock was chosen to be the given in s8 -format.
Kodak had discussions with numerous customers around the world last year (some from this forum participated), and several reversal film possibilities were discussed. As a low speed tungsten balance stock with good image structure (sharp, low graininess), E64T is the most "direct" replacement for K40. A daylight balance stock was also considered, and is still a possibility.

100D in Super 8 is not dead in the water? So many people here would love to see it, as you know. If Kodak were to replace K40 with E64T *and* 100D, only the whiniest of whiners could possibly complain.

(Of course, I'm of the belief that E64T is a suitable replacement and that the move to E6 will be a boon to Super 8; but as the previous 9 pages of this thread show, I'm in a distinct minority.)

Post by **downix** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:05 pm

I'm with you ccortez. Shoot, worst thing I have to deal with is to remember to insert a 2/3's stop ND filter in front of the film, so properly expose it in my camera.

Post by **LastQuark** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:52 pm

ccortez wrote:100D in Super 8 is not dead in the water? So many people here would love to see it, as you know. If Kodak were to replace K40 with E64T *and* 100D, only the whiniest of whiners could possibly complain.

I am beginning to doubt there is a huge difference between 64T and 100D. Both are more grainy than K40. Count me in as one of the whiniest of whiners.

I would like to see E100GX. E100GX is two generations newer than 100D and with finer grain even than K40.

Post by **mr8mm** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:07 pm

I think if we are asking for a new reversal stock, we should be asking for the E200 not the E100. The 100 is too close to 64T. We need a fast color reversal film for available light filming. Since much available light is daylight balanced flouresent lighting, I believe it makes more sense to push for the faster E200. And the grain isn't too bad either. And 200 would work fairly well with automatic S8 cameras that set to 160. This film also has the advantage of working well in daylight with the correct ND filter to give an equivalent speed of 50 or 25.

J.S.

Post by **LastQuark** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:22 pm

mr8mm wrote:I think if we are asking for a new reversal stock, we should be asking for the E200 not the E100. The 100 is too close to 64T. We need a fast color reversal film for available light filming. Since much available light is daylight balanced flouresent lighting, I believe it makes more sense to push for the faster E200. And the grain isn't too bad either. And 200 would work fairly well with automatic S8 cameras that set to 160. This film also has the advantage of working well in daylight with the correct ND filter to give an equivalent speed of 50 or 25.

J.S.

This is about K40 replacement for the masses where the top criterion is *grain*, most shoot outdoors, and no additional investment in ND filters. E100GX can still work indoors albeit at lower stop. The good thing about these modern stocks is they can be pushed much higher. Kodak, for example, advertises E200GX can be pushed to 800 ASA. See my signature below. E100GX easily can be pushed to 200 ASA if I use the same equation and this will be close to k40 for indoor performance.

Post by **Juergen** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:22 am

John_Pytlak wrote:The dilemma is that film is coated as 54-inch wide rolls up to 12,000 feet long. 10,000 cartridges per year isn't even up to a single roll yet. And even 100,000 cartridges is only a few rolls. Much easier to develop a business case when the film is also used in other formats.

In Chalon (France) another 14,000 cartridges of K40 have been made some days ago. I think, this is the amount you can get from one wide roll. As you know, our petition cannot represent the whole market (a lot of the German users using 30,000 carts per year do not have any access to the internet), but it represents more than 11% of the world market up to now. Show me any petition in which such a high percentage of users can be found.

What do you mean by "Much easier to develop a business case when the film is also used in other formats"? K40 is used in other formats (or did you already stop it in DS8 and 16mm?). And K40 already exists. The machines exist! Or is it just to expensive for Kodak who takes all machines for the production of film stock from Rochester to China? Is this one of the main reasons? That it is not worth bringing machines to China for such a small quantity?

Dear me! Questions, so many questions...

One more fact should be taken into consideration. People starting with K40 might be great users of 16mm and 35mm in the future. In Germany, all film schools use this material. Even Steven Spielberg started with Super-8 on Kodachrome. Spike Lee, Gus van Sant, Rick Linklater, directors like Jem Cohen, Matthew Harrison, Kelly Reichardt, and a host of experimental film artists not yet widely known, did their start with K40.

In our petition you can see that a lot of young people (17-25 years) just started with Super-8. They buy a cheap camera, put in the cartridge and shoot. This is their first experience. This first film makes the decision to go on with it or stop it. If the exposure is wrong (because of the 64 ASA topic of Ektachrome 64) they won't use it any more. Nobody who starts will have the idea that a Super 8 cartridge can not be read correctly in an automatic camera.

One of the reproaches towards Kodak is the fact, that they DO NOT tested this. The tests with Ektachrome 64 T was done with only 3 cameras. Two Beaulieus (fully manual settings!) and one Canon model which could read 64 ASA! No camera with 40/160 ASA settings was tested. That is negligent. And this is made by the great inventor of Super-8. I am speechless.

Post by **mattias** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:36 am

mr8mm wrote:The 100 is too close to 64T. We need a fast color reversal film for available light filming.

100d is perfect for daylight available light filming. if you're shooting in the shade ("daylight interiors") or under heavily overcast skies, or sweden in the winter for that matter, especially if you want to work near the sweet spot aperture you need it. plus i often use kinos for lighting which are daylight balanced, plus i like the look of 100d from having seen it in 16mm.

/matt

Post by **mattias** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:43 am

Juergen wrote:One more fact should be taken into consideration. People starting with K40 might be great users of 16mm and 35mm in the future. In Germany, all film schools use this material.

they do? and wait a random amount of time ranging from one to four weeks to see their results? i would have guessed they used black and white and got it developed in a local lab or the school darkroom. that's how it's been done at the film schools i've been involved with.

/matt

Post by **Juergen** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:59 am

In Germany it takes 10 days to get your film back. That is no problem at all. And for some Euros there is a one day in lab guarantee.

Post by **christoph** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:25 am

mattias wrote:
Juergen wrote:In Germany, all film schools use this material.
they do?

actually they don't. i studied at one of the major film schools in germany and in all that time only three project ever used super8 at all and only one of them used K40 (and that was only for some weird inserts).
shame that it vanishes though.
++ christoph ++

Post by **mathis** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:57 pm

Yes, err, students at major film schools have enough money to go for 16 or - like in Munich - 35mm super widescreen dolby digital super shiny glossy slicky pictures with a really bad story.

Sorry, just had to vent. :roll:

I never heard of any K40 project on the Munich film school.

Post by **christoph** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:00 pm

mathis wrote:Yes, err, students at major film schools have enough money to go for 16 or - like in Munich - 35mm super widescreen dolby digital super shiny glossy slicky pictures with a really bad story

yeah, in munich they still have the money for that...
in berlin they shoot really bad stories on really crappy DV ;)
++ christoph ++