Sync Sound Success

Post by **mattias** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:33 am

jumar wrote:It looks like my Nizo 801M is off crystal by about 0.02%.

0.02%? that's so little i don't think it's possible to measure it using the running time of a super 8 cart (it's less than a frame)? did you mean 0.2%? you probably already thought of this, but did you take into account the 0.1% slowdown of the footage in transfer? if the crystal runs the camera at 24 fps and you transfer at 23.976 you will get a slight sync drift.

/matt

Post by **jumar** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:39 am

Oops I meant 0.2%.

Post by **Valtteri** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:48 pm

Hmm...there seems to be a few topics about this same subject and i think that at least one of them is "my fault". Anyhow sorry for not noticing this topic at the begining. It sure would be realy interesting to se your shots with sound!

Heres one that we recently made:

http://www.8mm.filmshooting.com/scripts ... b0e402c9b1

Post by **jessh** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:09 pm

discs of tron wrote:where did you get your barney, or did you make it?

I believe the Barney was made by CUPS(Custom Upholstery Products) they were widely discussed on this forum a while back. Unfortunatly both the camera and the barney are not mine, just borrowed from a friend for the shoot. I do own multiple Super8 cameras, they just aren't as suitable for sound work.

~Jess

Post by **FILM-THURSO** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:57 am

At Film-Thurso we use a Nizo Integral which has a pulse generator which we feed direct to a mic input on a minidisk master. The Mic input is split so that a the sync pulse is recorded on one side and sound on the other. We only do this for close-ups.
Another technique is to connect the mic to the camera and run a sound line to minidisk master to allow the minidisk to record the sound continuous. Later the mindisc can be edited to cut out all the 'blank' areas and the resultant cut can be synced to the film fitting shot for shot.
On wide shots even when things are a little clearer on a big screen we simply drop in wild sound because the average shot lentgh doesn't quite allow the audience time to catch up with miss-sync sound. Wide shots can distract the eye from the lip movement. The sound in wide shots only has to match the action in general terms- you'ld have to really concentrate to spot it. Check out any trailer for action films and you'll see the same or have a look at the attack on Atlanta in "Gone With The Wind" where a 30 second sound snatch is used repeatedly. The whole scene is loosely matched.

Post by **jumar** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:44 am

FILM-THURSO wrote:At Film-Thurso we use a Nizo Integral which has a pulse generator which we feed direct to a mic input on a minidisk master. The Mic input is split so that a the sync pulse is recorded on one side and sound on the other. We only do this for close-ups.

How do you get it back to normal speed after that? Is there software that will detect the speed change automatically? I've done this with old mag-stock transferring, but never on a computer.

Post by **longhorn8** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:53 am

Jess,

You wouldn't happen to know where the audio stretching tool in Final Cut Pro would be located? I have FCP 2 right now. If I can find it I might be requesting a step by step instruction later.

Brad

Post by **mattias** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:39 pm

longhorn8 wrote:You wouldn't happen to know where the audio stretching tool in Final Cut Pro would be located?

it's in the manual, chapter 9, modifying clips in a sequence.

and i have a windows only piece of software that i wrote which automates the process if you have used any kind of cable sync. search the archives for more info, and email me if you want a copy.

/matt

Post by **FILM-THURSO** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:15 pm

Oh dear, these modern times! Too many people not aware of the dangers of ADA syndrome (Auto-Digital-Assumption). Sufferer's require maps and diagrams to understand the simplist of cine operations having forgotten due to over use (or abuse) of digital tools.
The pulse recorded on the other sound channel on a stereo digital master is fed to the syncro system on an Elmo GS1200 (God of all projectors) machine.
Each pulse advances the film one frame at a time with manual correction, if required, on a variable speed control.
Where no pulse has been recorded 'Picture-start' marker is used and sound is recorded sectionally in small amounts or job lot depending on the sound on the track.
Sectional sound drops-ins are used to add 'loose-sync' sound to other scenes often done as sound on sound or added as an additional mix track when the main sync run is being done.
This is all done on "old mag stock".

Film-Thurso only uses digital in sound mastering on minidisc and effects creation and composition on PC with Mr. Photo and MGI Photosuite. EVERYTHING starts on film and FINISHES ON FILM. what goes on in between is simply production process!

Post by **mattias** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:28 pm

are you suggesting that what you're describing is in any way easier than to run my program? you must be smoking crack.

/matt

Post by **Pedro** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:57 pm

I agree, the most easyest way to "marry" the separatly recorded sound with the striped film is to use the GS1200MO. You simply advance the film until you see the first frame of the scene to be synced in the gate, turn the switch to "ESS" and start your audio. As the projctor was waiting for the right point to join in, it will only start as soon as the first frame pulse arrives at the ESS input. Only then the projector starts by itself.
When the pulses are over, the projector stops by itself!

This way each sound scene can be synchronized EXACTLY, without any try and error, shrinking and stretching, video-converting and PC-capturing, and you have a projectable film in the end, and not only a working copy on video.

Really, you only need a projector that can follow frame pulses that you record during shooting.
That is the GS1200MO, all Braun visacustic models with external synchronizer, and converted Bauer Studio Class models (that ones with DC-motors) with external synchronizers.

If your Projector is double-track or stereo, you can add in the second run some music or background sound to the other track and your film is ready within a few hours.

For more sofisticated sound tracks, I recommend by own expierience to shoot the completly edited and synced film with any trash video camera from the flew market and feed it all to the easyest video editor you can find, including the dialog sound. (recommendation: iMovie)
The projector you use for this transfer MUST run crystal controlled, again easy and cheap with the ELMO GS1200MO.

Having the synced film in the video editor, you can add any additional sound very easyly, create sofisticated sound mixtures, without touching the original footage or dubbing sound in the projector.

Once finished, you simply play it back on your computer and record it to the sound stripe of the original film, running the projector crystal synced again. It only works with crystal sync. Or you burn a CD and play it along with the crystal controlled projector. Even the dialogs will come out perfectly that way.

Pedro

Post by **mattias** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:28 pm

Pedro wrote:without any try and error, shrinking and stretching

same with my program. just push start and you're done. you don't even have to sync up each scene, it optionally takes care of that too by simply skipping any audio not containing sync pulses.

video-converting and PC-capturing, and you have a projectable film in the end, and not only a working copy on video.

well, i can't beat you there. :-) my program is for people finishing on video.

/matt

Post by **FILM-THURSO** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:58 pm

mattias you can't beat us atol, The Elmo GS1200 will also skip any track not containing pulses and more than that we were planning some studio time for a digital multi track master containing pulse in it's own track space then feeding it all back to the film. We need only push one button and let it run, no PC's here, no software just plain old fashioned technology. Ya Hoo! When I got my Elmo I tested the sync system by connecting the Nizo's pulse out directly to the ESS- press the camera shutter release and the projector runs exactly in sync- amazing! Let us know when you have a programme for finishing on super 8, och no! that would take fun outta movies, lol.

Post by **christoph** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:32 am

FILM-THURSO wrote:mattias you can't beat us atol, The Elmo GS1200 will also skip any track not containing pulses [snip]

yeah, and the last time i checked on ebay it went for well over 3000 euros too (might have been a xenon lamp one)...

no doubt it's a great machine ;)
++ christoph ++

Post by **mattias** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:32 am

FILM-THURSO wrote:mattias you can't beat us atol, The Elmo GS1200 will also skip any track not containing pulses

yeah, sorry if i sounded like i could "beat you" in that respect. i've never said that my system is easier to use than the gs1200, but you and pedro claimed the opposite, which just isn't true. they're both just as easy to use, and since many people actually *want* to finish on video and don't do it out of necessity i'll keep the program available... :-)

/matt