Best density achieved with shooting Vision2 200 negative?

[Nicholas Kovats]

Our wedding present for one of my girlfriends' best friends will be a short Super 8 film to be shot on Vision 2 200 ASA Super 8 stock.

I typically utilize an external 1 degree spot meter for my exposures.

Locations = church with tall interior with light streaming through and some exterior shots on a beautiful University campus outdoors.

I want the best overall density on my negatives. Should I underexpose my readings by -1/3, -1/2 or -1 whole stop for the best negative?

Regards,

Nicholas K.
Toronto

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

Underexposing the negative film will give lots of grain. The general rule is to overexpose the negative emulsions a little bit.

So overexpose, do not underexpose.

[Nicholas Kovats]

Thanks for the comment Kent.

Any specific recommendations re: stops?

Regards,

NK

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

Somewhere from 1/3th stop over exposure to 2/3 of a stop.

[mattias]

for the best density, overexpose ten stops or so, that will make the entire image reach d-max. isn't it cheaper to buy black leader though? ok sorry, but seriously i'm not sure what you mean.

[Mitch Perkins]

for the best density, overexpose ten stops or so, that will make the entire image reach d-max. isn't it cheaper to buy black leader though? ok sorry, but seriously i'm not sure what you mean.

I believe he wants rich blacks - a nice "fat" neg.

Since black is white (clear - halide crystals washed away in processing) with the negs, over-exposing is how rich blacks are obtained. Of course, any decent exposure can be CC'd for rich blacks; it's the under-exposed stuff that has the snowy grain all over the image.

We're working on it.....

Mitch

[adamgarner]

I'd strongly suggest a cart or 2 of 500T for the church. Your typical church has such subtle lighting that 200 will fall short. Almost EVERY church I've shot in needed 500T, and registered as underexposed on my canon 1014XL-S

If you shoot 200 you may need to push it so hard in telecine that you end up with just as much grain (and less detail) than shooting 500T.

Also, just an related pointer: When you're shooting in a typically low light church, you're aperture is pretty much full wide open. Your DOF will be shallower than you can tell through most diopters. Make sure you pin-point focus or ALL your shots will be soft and fuzzy in a bad way. Total amateur move and it sux for the bride/groom.

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

for color negative film it's simple: always overexpose if you have enough light. the irony is that the higher ASA the filmstock, the more it benefits from overexposing, but usually if we shoot 500ASA we are tight on light anyway. how much to overexpose depends on the intended look, i'd say 1/3 to 1 stop. overexposing will result in higher density and moves the shadows higher up in the response curve. if we push this down again on printing or telecine, the shadows will tighten up becaus they are coming from the straighter part of the response curve, which makes them look much more solid. if necessary, we also have more detail in the shadow, and the overall graininess will be reduced as well because more of the smaller film grains have been exposed.
basically overexposing increases contrast, grain structure, shadow detail and saturation. so the only reason not to overexpose is if we want to have a more muted, low-contrast look with pronounced grain.

for color reversal it is a bit different:
overexposing will loose detail in the highlights, and will result in lower contrast and more pastell colors. this is why traditionally for slide film the advice has been to underexpose half a stop. this might still be true for projection (although personally i like to try to hit the "correct" exposure, whatever that means ;), but for scanning and telecine, the high density in the shadows means that we cant capture the full contrast range except with very expensive machines. even then, the image will look a bit grainy.
so my personal advice is to overexpose reversal too, but just very slightly, like 1/3-1/2 stops. it will scan much better and the highlights blow out much nicer on film then if we have to clip it in the telecine to recover the shadows.

b/w negative is a mixed bag:
underexposure will result in a loss of shadow detail and grainy film stock. overexposure will give a lot of shadow detail but the silve grains will scatter the lights more which makes it look grainy too. so my advice is to expose for the correct exposure, but the true EI of the filmstock depends on the developer used anyway, so tests are necessary.

finally, b/w reversal is similar to color reversal:
an underexposes, dense film is very hard to transfer, so i'd prefer to slightly overexpose, but really only just slightly.


finally one last comment about low light situations where you cant overexpose because of lack of light:
if you can, try to sneak in some extra light, maybe change the bulb from 60W to an efficient 100W one. if you can't, try to find a position where your main subject gets at least partly hit by a direct light. also find some hot spots in the background. generally speaking, try to find at lest some contrast in the image even if more of the scene is dark, we need some bright spots somewhere.

hope that gives fred something to do with his E64T ;)
++ c.

ps: dont even try to use E64T at nights except if you have an XL camera and people are standing directly next to a strong light source..

[Nicholas Kovats]

Well it turned out the church interior was quite dim ...so having arrived late for the ceremonies I made a "guerrilla" S8 decision to expose for 400 ASA. I have requested the lab to push process 1 stop.

I still shot on the soft end of the lens, i.e. f1.8 wide open ...alternating between 9 and 18 f.p.s. I was constrained by the solemness and quiet of the ceremony. I felt my shots were conservative and stiff.

But my inner S8 "exploded" outside fast and furious, i.e. glorious daylight as people streamed out in a queue as they warmly congratulated the beaming bride and groom. I was free to dive, duck, zoom, whip pan, circle 180, 360, 720 degrees, utilize my extended monopod and remote for overhead tracking shots. I love the human face, sunlight, trees and old building textures and framed it in all it's glory.

The bride kept remarking how she loved the "sound" of the old Nizo S8 156 macro camera. I heard people speculating whether it was a video camera? i.e. One guy high fived a partner as he had allegedly won a bet that it was a 1981 Super 8 camera NOT a 2008 video camera!

I subsequently shot off the rest of my 6x rolls of 200T. And yes in the excitement of the moment I did not "throttle" back my 400 ASA based readings and shoot instead at 200 ASA. I explained to the bride the possibility of increased grain but she assured me that was fine. My f/stops hovered at f16-22. Not the best part of the lens + iris but hey... I have shot in that range before and my Schneider lens still pulls through, i.e. "Is that 16mm?"

Stay tuned...

[Will2]

Not sure what your telecine plans are but with that much overexposure and it being a wedding (brides & brides' fathers can be demanding) make sure you use a good colorist.

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

OMG, it sounds like a nightmare... 8O All of it!

[Mitch Perkins]

OMG, it sounds like a nightmare... 8O All of it!

Really? Wide open + 9fps in the church, sunny 16 outside - should be fine.

Is the outdoor stuff getting pushed a stop? That might not hurt some of the f22 stuff....

Mitch

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

A wedding is a once in a lifetime thing (hopefully). Arriving too late, not having as much light as I was expecting, shooting with 9 fps (gives very ugly movements, in my opinion), forgetting to change ASA settings... I´d say that would be enough to call it a nightmare if I was the cameraman.

[Nicholas Kovats]

Kent.

I did not "forget" to "switch" the ASA setting on my camera. I never use 35-40 year old in camera meters to take average light readings. I utilize an external one degree meter for the desired precision.

However my precision may take lower priority than potential emotional content of a desired scene.

As I mentioned the bride is ok with my methodology and potential increased grain. I was not the official and formal archivist of this wedding. She is anxious to see my interpretation, is a fan of my work and happens to be a professional photographer.

Having said that I could illustrate my typical film exposures as I have multiple completed Super 8 films on Vimeo. However I have set my privacy levels as such to my Vimeo contacts only as I have multiple submissions to various festivals, e.g. Two or more of my films will be showing at Weiterstadt the "Woodstock of Short Films" in Germany.

Look for my full name "Nicholas Kovats" on Vimeo. Make me a contact and I will make you one in return.

We can discuss technical exposure and transfer methods off-line.

Mitch. I think you are a Vimeo contact already.

I will admit I am still learning to master the Super 8 color negative and I am aiming to replicate my success with black and white. I will also post eventual transfer samples from this shoot.

Cheers!

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

I did not "forget" to "switch" the ASA setting on my camera.

OK. English is not my native language, I thought that "And yes in the excitement of the moment I did not "throttle" back my 400 ASA based readings and shoot instead at 200 ASA." meant that you accidentaly exposed the film incorrectly.

I didn´t mean to "step on your toes", I just thought how I would feel at the occasion.

I don´t think I´m a member at Vimeo (I host my filmclips on my own domain), so I can´t add you as a contact.