Legal action for failure to renew smallformat?

[monobath]

I got an odd letter from Schiele & Schon today, from their Accounts Receivable department. They say:

Dear Madam or Sir,

you unfortunately did not react to our reminder concerning unpaid invoices(s). In the meantime we furthermore had costs and negative interests for what we charge you additional.

This overdue accounts is:

Invoice- Original
No. from description amount Amount due
xxxxxxx 04.04.08 smallformat 69,00 69,00 03.06.08

Additional fee 5,00
Total EUR 74,00

We hereby set you a final deadline to pay our claims. If we do not receive the sum

by 26.07.08

we shall be obliged to take legal action - with the attendant not inconsiderable cost will be charged entirely to you. We hope you will avoid that.

Yours faithfully,

FACHVERLAG SCHIELE & SCHON GMBH
Angela Patterer


-------------------------


This seems really odd. All I did was choose not to renew my subscription. What possible legal action could they be referring to. I've subscribed to the magazine from its inception, but I decided not to continue. They must think I'm obligated to renew my subscription for the rest of my life.


Anyone else ever encountered this bizarre treatment from them before?

[richard p. t.]

Hi Monobath,
I have experienced this before myself. Actually it was when I was living in Germany (though I don't think it is a practice only used there by any means). I think publishers that do this have the policy that unless you un-subscribe, you are a subscriber and when they send you the first of the next years magazines, you have to pay again. As for legal action, I doubt there is much they can do and it ammounts to an unsavory threat. It is likely that the small print of the initial subscription you took out had indicated that unless you contacted them, you are an ongoing subscriber. Yes, its bad Kama. Helps prevent subscriber 'drop off' though.
richard

[Jim Carlile]

Yavold.

Are they still sending you the magazine?

Besides, they would have to sue you in your own country in order to have any kind of enforcement-- unless Australia is part of the EC!

[beaunizo]

The subscription and administrativ department isn't the best led department of the publisher. Last year I bought a trial issue through eBay. Never received it. Only got repetitive and idiotic replies about people coming and going into leave etc. Only thanks to member and editor Juergen himself I finally received the trial issue.

Renewal is mostly automatic per contract regulation. You have to cancel subscription explictly. Did you write them a subscription cancellation on paper as a letter? Never trust email for these kind of matters. The legal action is typical german lawyer threats which they think they can coerce departing customers with Rather than good service or being competitive to keep them in. This may work in Germany but unlikely does across the world and certainly not with hourly rates of Euro 250 or something.

Had the same with another magazine here locally. They said I was too late with my letter and just expected me to stay onboard for another year. Wrote them another letter, pointed out clearly why I was cancelling and that I had no knowledge of their hidden treshold-date which I had to honour. Never heard of them after that

[Juergen]

Dear Monobath,

its easy to blame others for what they have done. But sometimes it seems too difficult to do something by oneself. Just writing a short e-mail, saying: I would like to stop my subscription. That is all what you should have done.

All the related facts have been listed by Richard here. In Germany it is common to subscribe to a magazine once. You will get copies until you unsubscribe. This is mentioned on every order form - even on ours. When in Rome, do as the Romans do!

I am a little bit tired of reading forum mails that the publishing house I am working for is always blamed for doing cruel things to the readers. Most of the times it is totally unnecessary to discuss this in public but it would have been fine to contact those people who are responsible for these things.

Hope you enjoyed the reading. This is the only reason I do this more and more thankless job.

[Juergen]

Jim Carlile,
to compare this topic with Hitler is not funny at all.
And Monobath is NOT living in Australia.

[MovieStuff]

Dear Monobath,

its easy to blame others for what they have done. But sometimes it seems too difficult to do something by oneself. Just writing a short e-mail, saying: I would like to stop my subscription. That is all what you should have done.

All the related facts have been listed by Richard here. In Germany it is common to subscribe to a magazine once. You will get copies until you unsubscribe. This is mentioned on every order form - even on ours. When in Rome, do as the Romans do!

Hi, Juergen!

I think the confusion is because of how the subscription is advertised on your subscription page:

http://smallformat.schiele-schoen.de/ze ... uswahl.asp

It reads:

Subscription type

Please choose your subscription type.

Single copy of SMALLFORMAT

Annual subscription to SMALLFORMAT

Annual subscription (with Airmail) to SMALLFORMAT

Annual subscription to the electronic version of SMALLFORMAT

Annual subscription for students to SMALLFORMAT

Annual subscription for students (with Airmail) to SMALLFORMAT

This clearly implies that if you want to receive SmallFormat for one year, then you pay X amount of dollars. Why offer an "annual" subscription if, in reality, signing up means an "infinity" subscription? Sure, monobath could have sent an email asking that his subscription be dropped but, realistically, most anyone would feel that if they had signed up for a one year subscription then, after one year, the subscription would stop. Otherwise, what's the point of an "annual" subscription?

I am a little bit tired of reading forum mails that the publishing house I am working for is always blamed for doing cruel things to the readers.

I support your magazine and consider myself one of the founding advertisers but, respectfully, the idea that the publishers can advertise a one year subscription but then have fine print that says it really is a forever subscription smacks of what we in the US call "bait and switch". So, rather than requiring customers like monobath to send an email to end something that they thought had already ended, why not just drop the pretense of an "annual" subscription on your subscription page? Seems like if someone involved has to write something, it should be the publisher doing the writing just one time to correct the situation instead of customers having to write repeatedly in response to an obvious marketing error.

My two cents....

Roger

[Juergen]

Thanks Roger,

there are some interesting points in your statement and I agree with you that the publisher should modify the internet offers. But, especially in this case, your argumentation does not work because Monobath had a subscription for already two years. So he must have known about the fact that the subscription goes on if its not cancelled.

[Lunar07]

[....................]
It reads:
Subscription type
Please choose your subscription type.
[..............]

True, but in this case it looks like this means that you pay your subscription fee annualy then you are invoiced to pay another annual fee when the year is over. It does not mean that it is a 'forever' subscription. It means you renew the subscription like in renewing a 'lease.' If you leave a rented apartment you let the owners know. Not, well maybe the renter is still there - give him a month or two and we'll see
If you want to stop subscription then let them know.

On this issue, some common sense points:
MONOPATH: This is to you -
How many Super8 magazines we have? Wanna have a guess? This is it folks: SmallFormat, and Super8 Today (which comes once every 3 months now).

So Monobath:
Both of these magazines cater to a small crowd. They are not on the scale of People magazine. They do not have the circulation of Time magazine.
This means: If someone decides to unsubscribe it is a courtesy to let the publisher know so that the publisher does not have to send extra copies and end up with the cost. You must have received a reminder. You must have received an extra copy. This is extra cost to the publisher. The same publisher who keeps being on the verge on stopping publication due to cost.

This is NOT People magazine. So you could have informed the subscription department that you are ending the subscription instead of publishing their correspondence here.

[etimh]

Wow, I got this letter too and recently sent an e-mail requesting some clarification about the status of my account. Still, no reply.

I am absolutely flabbergasted and completely in the dark about where my account stands. Yes, I have recieved issues. How many in relation to the "paid" subscription? I'm not sure, because one time I actually got two issues at once, then a duplicate of one issue. It's totally confusing.

If the subscription price was low, it would be no big deal to me to just say, "yeah, keep renewing it forever." But it is a real hefty bill and I when you get a new invoice just six months after paying for an "annual" subscription, its confusing and frustrating.

Then, to get the threatening letter. Well, that just pissed me off. I hope this gets resolved and I don't miss any issues. It is an amazing magazine.

Tim

[MovieStuff]

Thanks Roger,

there are some interesting points in your statement and I agree with you that the publisher should modify the internet offers. But, especially in this case, your argumentation does not work because Monobath had a subscription for already two years. So he must have known about the fact that the subscription goes on if its not cancelled.

Perhaps, but your pricing is based not on a specific number of units but on a duration of time. If monobath received a discount on the first two years because he promised to also subscribe for another two years, then you would have a valid concern if he failed to purchase the third and fourth year. He got a "volume discount" but did not follow through with an order in volume. But if he paid in advance for a specific amount of time, whether that time is a year, two years or five years, he has zero obligation to continue paying after that time if he no longer wants the magazine. It's really just that simple. You should never have to continue paying for a service that you no longer use.

[....................]
It reads:
Subscription type
Please choose your subscription type.
[..............]

True, but in this case it looks like this means that you pay your subscription fee annualy then you are invoiced to pay another annual fee when the year is over. It does not mean that it is a 'forever' subscription.

If you click on the link that says "one year subscription" and then find on the linked page that you will be obligated to an unlimited subscription unless you intervene by writing them an email, then that is a "forever" subscription.

That the subscriber has to write something additional to make their wishes known when they already did so by clicking on the "one year subscription" button is like having an internet shop that sells shoes in different colors, with a button you click to choose which color shoes you want. So you click "blue" and it takes you to another page that says, "Thanks for your order for blue shoes. You will receive red shoes unless you send an email telling us you want something different."

Again, why offer the customer an initial choice if that choice is going to be ignored or modified?

It means you renew the subscription like in renewing a 'lease.'

Exactly. You are only required to give notice to apartment management if you leave before the end of the lease. I know of no law that requires you to lease an apartment beyond the end of the lease period.

They are not on the scale of People magazine. They do not have the circulation of Time magazine.

Which makes good customer service and relations all the more important. As I noted previously, I love and support the magazine but since they do not have the customer base of People or Time magazine, then being able to communicate with the people that pay their salary should be all that much easier. Inadvertent bait and switch marketing tactics and letters implying legal threats do not speed the plow for good feelings if they know their customer base is small. I agree that it would have been good form for monobath to write them a letter asking why he was being billed for a service he was no longer using. However, I do not agree that he had an obligation to continue buying their magazine nor an obligation to cancel after the agreed two year period. Also, any company with an internet presence can not be surprised if their actions are discussed on the internet. I have been running an internet based business since 2001 and I can tell you it is a reality that I have to deal with on a daily basis.

Roger

[Will2]

smallformat is an excellent publication both in content and design. I have nothing but high regard for the publication.

However, to say it's hard to "blame oneself for our own errors" misses the point. In the U.S. and apparently many other countries, renewals only happen when the publication has a check in hand and therefore most people assume NOT sending that check means they will not get the publication. This will be the first time most subscribers in the U.S. will have ever dealt with German publications so if business is handled that way there it would be important to indicate that as clearly as possible, perhaps overly clear so people in countries where this doesn't happen understand.

I am a little bit tired of reading forum mails that the publishing house I am working for is always blamed for doing cruel things to the readers. Most of the times it is totally unnecessary to discuss this in public but it would have been fine to contact those people who are responsible for these things.

Bravo for standing up for your publisher. However, threatening legal action over a magazine subscription goes well beyond something that should be handled privately and quietly. As law suit crazy as the U.S. is, this would be considered using a sledge hammer to hang a photograph on the wall. If we must understand that Germany automatically renews subscriptions then you must understand that threatening law suits to us is like declaring personal war, and we get very defensive and start thinking things like "Let them come over here and sue me! Screw them!" Just trying to give you some insight into why people react this way and not treat it as some simple, quiet, private matter.

[Juergen]

Roger,

I am sure the publisher will offer an improved internet order site in the near future. Thanks for the hints. But the case is really different with Monobath. He has got a first invoice for a one years' period, paid for it, after a year he has got a new invoice, paid for it again and with the first (unpaid) issue of the third year, he received a third invoice which he did not pay for. So I think he should have known how this kind of subscription works and an e-mail about his wish to stop the subscription would have been fair. The "not automatically ending subscription" is the usual way here in most countries of Europe and by this way you can be sure not to miss an issue.

But you are right - things should be stated properly (because in a lot of countries subscriptions work dfferent than here) and I will talk to the publisher.

[Juergen]

Will2,

I fully understand your argumentation. I already told the publisher that it is nonsense to threaten legal action against somebody. They may send a nice reminder, but if there is no answer, there is no magazine anymore. To avoid problems with unpaid issues that are sent out with the new invoice, the new invoice can be send with the last already paid issue.

Please take into consideration: The publishing house Schiele & Schön is a German publisher with about 10 German titles, smallformat is the first international one. Both sides (subscribers and publisher) have to learn a little bit from each other. But learning is much easier when people are communicating with each other. The first way should not be the way to go public.

[reflex]

As Juergen said, this is simply a case of poor wording by the publisher. Their fulfillment staff aren't used to sending out communication in English, and it tends to get mangled in translation.

I suspect they automatically renew subscriptions because of the time lag involved in the international mail system and the cost of sending out renewal notices. If you find yourself getting magazines that you don't want, send them an email immediately to cancel your subscription. They'll sort it out and life will go on.

The practice of automatically renewing magazines is extremely common in the USA, to the point that Time Magazine was sued by 22 states recently for changing their renewal policy to perpetually renewing subscriptions and sending out renewal letters that resemble formal bills demanding late payment.