Using cassette tape to record sound

[rjmluke]

i am recording much of the sound for my S8 feature in post pro and some while i am shooting. I will transfer the sound to digital (WAV or AIFF format) to edit. I think the tape may add a dreamy effect to the film if I twist it properly. I would love to use an analog reel deck, however this is out of my economic bracket. Does anyone have experience with using tape with S8? Is there a way I can get a sync 'beep' on the tape from the machine, so i don't need to use a clapper? What can you suggest? thanks a lot

[Clapton Pond]

I wouldn't bother if I were you - even if you put a bleep on the tape, it'll drift out of sync pretty quickly as tape speed isn't digitally controlled. Then there's tape hiss, and average sound quality... unless that's what you mean by 'dreamy'

ian

[Jim Carlile]

Do you really need sync?

Why don't you just record a good wild track on cassette, and then match it up shot by shot in post?

There are ways you can record sync on one of the cassette tracks-- it works well-- but then you have the next problem of resolving. With audio software nowadays, it's easy to match sound to visuals.

[Super8rules]

Back in the 70's. using a cassette was the only way to do external sound and it worked pretty good for as simple as it was.

Unless you have long scenes of dialog with no coverage, you'll run into sync problems but if you are cuttng, you won't have a problem at all.

Have you considered using minidisc?

Robert Rodiguez used a cassette player to record sound and dialog on EL MARIACHI and he didn't even record sound as the camera rolled. He would redo the scene for audio only as the camera was too loud to do it while filming. Despite this, he matched things up pretty damn good.

[jpolzfuss]

Is there a way I can get a sync 'beep' on the tape from the machine, so i don't need to use a clapper?

Depending on your camera and tape-recorder, you wouldn't even need this "beep" as there are/have been combos where the camera automatically started/stopped the recorder. Advanced versions recorded a "beep per frame" (or at least every 4 frames) or used reels/MCs with perforated tape to enable an easier sync'ing later on... .
As for the quality: When you do have a recorder with Dolby B or C noise reduction filters, the quality should be good enough - especially when you're going to mix the recorded sound with some background music from CD in post.

[johnnhud]

I did the very same thing at a wedding a few years ago. I shot in S8 and used a hand held tapedeck that I held out infront on the camera, just under the view of the lens. The sync was entirely wild, but what I found was that with fresh batteries in both the camera and the tape deck, I had an almost perfect sync.

I then stitched it all together in my NLE.

Here is a sample of the two playing together.

http://web.mac.com/johnnhud/iWeb/Site/C ... 4C37A.html

[freddiesykes]

The Sony WM-D6C is a good choice. Expect to pay a lot though.

[Jim Carlile]

Is there a way I can get a sync 'beep' on the tape from the machine, so i don't need to use a clapper?

Depending on your camera and tape-recorder, you wouldn't even need this "beep" as there are/have been combos where the camera automatically started/stopped the recorder. Advanced versions recorded a "beep per frame" (or at least every 4 frames) or used reels/MCs with perforated tape to enable an easier sync'ing later on... .

Canon and Elmo supposedly had special sync recorders, but I've never seen them. That's the reason for the mysterious mini mini DIN plug on the 1014XLS. Elmo has that later silent camera with a recorder, that occasionally shows up somewhere.

For serious sync, you need something to keep track of the camera speed. But wild sync with matching up later on is the best way to go, I think.

[camera8mm]

would the mini din to tape recorders or other types of plugs work to stop and start a dat or mini disc as they were designed to start and stop a tape recorder while filming?

[BigBeaner]

I painstakingly stitched the audio back up to the film after I had captured both to the computer.

Do you know how to sync film clips and audio together in FCP when using a slate? It's pretty cool and simple especially when you know the short keys.

[johnnhud]

Do you know how to sync film clips and audio together in FCP when using a slate? It's pretty cool and simple especially when you know the short keys.

I do. I didn't use a slate because I was at a wedding and didn't have an assistant. Come to think of it though, a shot of the clapper in front of each of the guest would have been pretty cool. It really didn't take me that long to sync it in FCP. Prolly a half hour.

[jpolzfuss]

would the mini din to tape recorders or other types of plugs work to stop and start a dat or mini disc as they were designed to start and stop a tape recorder while filming?

I haven't seen any MD or DAT recorder with such a feature. But there have been some reports of users that disassembled their MD-recorder's remote and soldered some wires into the remote to get this working. (But this was for cameras like the Revue S10 Sound DeLuxe that simply start&stop tape-recorders, not for cameras that also provide a sync beep. This might make a difference as the start&stop is a simple electrical on/off while the sync beep might be more complicated, e.g. having the recorder to wait for the first beep.)

[adamgarner]

The idea of recording sound with super 8 is REALLY rad. I want to try it, and here's what I would suggest knowing what I know:

1: Sound should be recorded digitally. Clearly the reason for this is that the sound will not drift on a digital recorder such as a mini-disc or DAT, as it will with an analog device. Digital devices are sync'd as they have to write bits at a specific rate.

2: In FCP or Avid, or Premier Pro, you can sync later. ALSO, important to note, you can use post production tools to sync to super 8. One tool that is, I imagine, extremely useful is the time expansion or compression. So if your audio falls out of sync slightly, you can change the length of time the audio plays and it will not change the pitch. HUGE!

3: Clap boards are awesome. If you can use one in a controlled environment then use it. It'll help tremendously. If not, at least keep notes of what shots you recorded sound on. Using a DAT or MiniDisc you can keep note of the track you synced to what scene.

The third point above is a big one for media management. If you're shooting lots of footage (like at a wedding) you will need to corral all your media. Keeping track is a challenge here since you are playing both audio engineer and cinematographer. Make it easy on yourself. Keep notes.

I'd love to see some footage posted that was done without a crystal sync camera. Anyone have results?

[jpolzfuss]

1: Sound should be recorded digitally. Clearly the reason for this is that the sound will not drift on a digital recorder such as a mini-disc or DAT, as it will with an analog device. Digital devices are sync'd as they have to write bits at a specific rate.

When you don't have a crystal sync'ed camera it doesn't matter whether the sound is recorder digitally or not as you'll have to manually sync it in post anyway.
Having a cheap digital recorder (as budget is a problem for rjmluke) will even decrease the quality as it'll most likely store the sound in a heavily compressed way (like ATRAC on MiniDiscs) and will only feature a cheap analogue line-out. Hence the compressed (with losses) digital recording will be converted back to analogue (with losses) only to be digitalized again (and again with losses) via the PC's soundcard's analogue line-in. Hence using a decent tape-recorder will most likely give you better results.
(Of course as budget is a problem the tape-recorder will most likely only be a very cheap one. In this case a used MD-recorder (20-30 EUR on eBay) will most likely give better results - even if it only features an analogue line-out.)

Jörg

[johnnhud]

I'd love to see some footage posted that was done without a crystal sync camera. Anyone have results?

Again, here is a link to some footage that I shot on S8 with a handheld tape recorded for sound.

http://web.mac.com/johnnhud/iWeb/Site/C ... 4C37A.html

Take a look at it and determine if the audio is decent enough for you to use the same type of setup. Keep in mind that my enviroment was not controlled at all. People were all around making all types of noise.