Phantom Digital Cinematography Cameras

[Daniel]

Hello,

I have found some information concerning what seems to be interesting digital cinematography camera devices :

PHANTOM 65
4096 x 2440 @ 125 frames-per-second (fps)
The world's first medium-format digital cinema camera.

Key Features

* 4K (4096 x 2440) resolution
* Up to 125 frames-per-second (fps) frame rate at full resolution
* Adjust frame rate in 1 fps increments
* Shutter speeds as fast as two microseconds (1/500,000 second)
* 14-bit sensor depth (42-bit color)
* 11-stop dynamic range
* ISO 600
* Circular buffer recording / Run-Stop


http://www.visionresearch.com/index.cfm ... era_65_new



PHANTOM HD

2048 x 1080 @ 1000 frames-per-second
35mm depth-of-field in a high-speed digital HD camera.

Key Features

* HD (1920 X 1080) and 2K (2048 X 1536) resolution under a PL-mount lens. Or, 2048 X 2048 resolution under an F-mount lens.
* Up to 1000 frames-per-second (fps) frame rate at HD resolution
* Adjust frame rate in 1 fps increments
* Shutter speeds as fast as two microseconds (1/500,000 second)
* 14-bit sensor depth (42-bit color)
* ISO 600
* 35mm depth-of-field
* Circular buffer recording / Run-Stop

http://www.visionresearch.com/index.cfm ... era_HD_new



Regards,
Daniel

[Scotness]

It's a joke or a scam.

2048 x 2048 at 42 bit colour at 1000 frames per seconds BA HA HA HA!

Scot

[Daniel]

Hello Scot,

It's a joke or a scam.

2048 x 2048 at 42 bit colour at 1000 frames per seconds BA HA HA HA!

Scot

I haven't tested the cameras, but it do not seem to be at all a joke or a scam, as the cameras are beiing proposed by Abel CineTech, that is a serious rental/sell/service house in the USA.

As you can check :
“We are excited about bringing Vision Research cameras into our sales and rental line,” said Pete Abel, President and co-founder of Abel Cine Tech.

http://www.abelcine.com/articles/index. ... &Itemid=32

http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.p ... 331&page=1

http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.p ... 331&page=1

The manufacturer Vision Research (located at New Jersey) also propose to do a demo. For filmmakers in the USA and Canada this should be much easier to test the camera than for us located in the south pacific region.

Regards,
Daniel

[Scotness]

Quick calculation:

2048 x 2048 x 42 x 1000

= 176,160,768,000 bytes of data a second

= 172,032,000 Kb/s

= 168,000 Mb/s

= 164.0625 Gb/S


That's a pretty huge data stream!

But that's only at 1000 fps - at 24 it would be

(164.0625/1000) * 24

= 3.9375 Gb/s

And it's got 8 Gb on board memory - so at full 2048 x 2048 you'll get 2.03 seconds

But let's say you're only shooting at 2048 * 1080

that'll give you:

(3.9375/2048) * 1080

= 2.0764 Gb/s

Which goves you a far healthier 3.852 seconds of recording.

But if you dock the 512 Gb module on to it you'll get 4 minutes and six seconds.

Might as well just shoot Super 16.

I still say it's a joke.

Scot

[BigBeaner]

That's just ridiculous, up to 10megapixels at 125 frames per second, can anything handle that now?

[christoph]

It's a joke or a scam.
2048 x 2048 at 42 bit colour at 1000 frames per seconds BA HA HA HA!

it's not a scam, you can rent them at abel:

"Q: What rental rates?
A: Currently available from Abel Cine Tech. And up on our website soon if not already. The Phantom HD comes in 35mm PL mount with 16G of internal RAM, a color viewfinder, a laptop engineering computer (the camera controller, for the moment), a pair of 24v block batteries, and a sliding baseplate. All for only $2,000/day. The Phantom 65 is the same but offers a Mamiya large format lens mount (and soon Super-PL) and is $2750/day.

We also require a skilled engineer who has trained on the Phantom camera systems to run the unit. There are a few out there, and we offer training courses. If the client wishes to hire one of our engineers the charge is $750/10hr. day, New york or LA local.

...

Q: Sample frames available somewhere?
A: Soon on our website. Come visit our NAB booth and create your own!"


it "only" does the 1000 fps on 1920x1080 though, 700fps at 2K probably around 500fps at 2048x2048.
11db dynamig range too.. keep laughing :P
++ christoph ++

[mattias]

2048 x 2048 x 42 x 1000

= 176,160,768,000 bytes of data a second

bits, not bytes. multiply your times by 8. and a camera running at 1000fps is obviously not meant to shoot for more than a second or so. it doesn't take very long for a bullet to leave a gun or for a glass to break. imagine how long it will take to watch the footage at normal frame rate if you shot something that takes longer. ;-)

as for normal frame rates, how is this camera different when it comes to datarate from all the other hd and 2k cameras? that's the amount of data produced at that res no matter what ccd you use.

/matt

[christoph]

Quick calculation:

2048 x 2048 x 42 x 1000

= 176,160,768,000 bytes of data a second

= 172,032,000 Kb/s

= 168,000 Mb/s

= 164.0625 Gb/S

you're off for a couple of reasons:

- you mix bits with bytes
- only around 500fps at full res (1000fps at HD)
- certainly saves to raw rather than uncompressed RGB
- maybe even saves to compressed raw (like Red will do)

so in fact you should try:

2048 x 2048 x 14 x 500 / 8 = 3,670,016,000 Bytes per sec

= 3500 MB a sec = 3.41GB/sec

so that's 150sec at 1000fps on 512GB flash.. or 52min at 24fps.. or more precise (from abel themself):

Q: Anything else?
A: Just wait to you see the quality of the images. Really stunning, cinematic stuff. The images from the Phantom 65 are breathtaking.
And read into our info about the upcoming Flashmags. How does 75 minutes of 2Kx2K recording ONBOARD with no moving parts in about the size of a VHS tape? 20 minutes on the Phantom 65. That's going to turn the industry on it's head.

I still say it's a joke.

and computers will never need more than 64k of memory ;)
++ christoph ++

[Scotness]

and computers will never need more than 64k of memory ;)
++ christoph ++

Hey I'm accessing this site through my Commodore 64 ;-)


Seriously though - I knew my maths might be off in one or two ways but I thought it would kick the conversation along - and I get the point you don't want 1000fps for more than a second or so, but how is this different to other 2k cameras? - well the bit depth and the frame rates

So if it's not a joke where are the sample shots, the user reviews, the industry articles and reviews and the TVC's and dramas and feature films shot with it - the world's most awesome digital cinecamera just turns up in an innocous thread on shooting8mm one day?

Not saying it's not possible just my "bullshit radar" is more finally tuned nowadays when it comes to something you read on the net. Maybe the camera is true - but it's going to take more than a web page that anyone could knock together to convince me.

Perhaps I should check cinematography.com - is it being discussed there?
Scot

[christoph]

Perhaps I should check cinematography.com - is it being discussed there?

dunno, but the fact that it's on abels website is a dead proof... they dont fool around with things like that.
also, daniel usually knows what he is talking about.
++ christoph ++

[mattias]

how is this different to other 2k cameras? - well the bit depth and the frame rates

42 bits isn't that much, most high end devices use 30 or 36, and there are plenty of 3x16=48 bit cameras and scanners too. and frame rate is just frame rate, what difference does it make?

/matt

[Daniel]

Hello Scot,

I understand that you don't believe that this information to be true.
Sincerely I also thought that we would not see a high speed digital camera with 1920x1080 frame for a long time....

You said that you would prefer to shoot on Super-16mm, well I agree with you, one just have to see the latest Arri 416 and Aaton Xtera, plus latest Ultra 16 Carl Zeiss prime lens (and DI post) to understand that film technology is stronger than probably ever. Not to mention new Super 35mm tools.

However it is still interesting to discuss about new digital development. If you check the links I left, you will see that there is the possibility to download some frames and also to request a demo. I know there are plenty of noise concerning new cameras that are only prototypes like Red camera or sometime ago Kinetta. However in this case as the camera is beeing proposed by Abel Cine Tech (for a long time and still up to now, Aaton agent in the USA), I really think this is true, if not I would not have posted that here. I knew about this camera yesterday when I recieve the "HD Studio" mail review.

Now what is the real quality of the footage ? At least the "lake" and "fish" pictures one can download from the Vision Research web-site did not impress me, as it obvioulsy looks like a digital still photography with the lack of 3D depth (that I believe we have in film thanks to crystals capture technology), but it is still interesting to check-out, and hopefully in motion.

From the Vision Research website source I have found they will exhibit the cameras on different trade shows and for industrial exhibits as for example :

NAB - 2007
April 14, 2007 - April 19, 2007
Location: Las Vegas Convention Center
Vision Research will be demonstrating the Phantom HD and Phantom 65 cameras. The new PhantomFlash non-volatile, on-camera, mass storage system will be introduced. We will also have a V7.3, V10 and a surprise camera in the booth. Come see us at booth C11426.


Auto Testing Expo Europe
May 08, 2007 - May 10, 2007
Location: Messe Stuttgart, Germany
Phantom cameras ideally suited to automotive test, engineering, and manufacturing will be on display.


SAE Japan
May 23, 2007 - May 25, 2007
Location: Pacifico Yokohama-Pacific Convention Plaza Yokohama
Vision Research's Phantom cameras for automotive test and engineering applications will be demonstrated and on display at this major automotive exposition.


Short Course: High Speed Imaging for Motion Analysis: Systems and Techniques
June 18, 2007 - June 21, 2007
Location: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Phantom cameras will be included in the equipment used for the hands-on lab sessions during this popular class.


Gordon Research Symposium
August 12, 2007 - August 17, 2007
Location: Oxford, England


IBC 2007
September 07, 2007 - September 11, 2007
Location: RAI Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Come see the Phantom HD and Phantom 65 in action at one of the world's largest broadcast shows. We will be exhibiting in Hall 11 Stand 561.




....So may be one of more members of this board will be able to see and test the camera and hopefully post some footage. I have solicited a demo and also to test the cameras, but I am a bit far away I believe to be considered.
Regards,
Daniel

[christoph]

but how is this different to other 2k cameras? - well the bit depth and the frame rates

well, how many 2K (or 4K) cameras can you rent at the moment?
i know of the D20 and the Genesis.. there might be two or three more.
those are all very good, and all very expensive.

so how does it differ from HD cameras?
35mm (or 65mm) size sensor resulting in different dop.
doesnt save to video codecs but most likely to a raw stream.
those two factors and the higher frame rate makes the camera pretty unique imo.

in five years it will be possible to rent those cameras for a few hundred a day, and computing power and storage technology will be good enough to let even low budget films use it.

looks like digital filmmaking if finally to arrive at a point where still photography already is. for good and for bad.
++ christoph ++

[mattias]

so how does it differ from HD cameras?
35mm (or 65mm) size sensor resulting in different dop.
doesnt save to video codecs but most likely to a raw stream.
those two factors and the higher frame rate makes the camera pretty unique imo.

agreed, but i meant how is this different bandwidth-wise. 2k is that much data no matter what camera you use. so if this means it's a hoax then surely all hd cameras must be too?

/matt

[Scotness]

The increased frame rate means an increased data stream per second (1000 is approx 41 times bigger than 24) but anyway I'm happy to stand corrected - there is a fair bit about it on the net including mention of an ad that was shot on it.

One of it's biggest selling points can be that it's so amazing some people don't believe it's real! :lol:

But then the real value of something isn't in the technical data - could you imagine arguing that Rembrandt was a better painter than van Gogh because he used more brush strokes ?!

But yes I stand corrected and I'm happy to admit I now believe exists! :lol:

Scot