Kodak Film Prices

[Silverdream]

I'm opening a new thread to discuss Kodak Super 8 film stock prices. I think we as film shooters need to get the message to Kodak that it's an important issue for us.

I won't talk for others but for myself I am finding the cost of Super 8 film has now become too high for all but some special projects. Perhaps others are of a similar opinion.
The thing is if we don't talk about this then Kodak won't know and they may conclude that film just isn't worthwhile to produce in the small quantities selling.
My point is that if film was priced more reasonable, then that would attract new film makers to the format and increase the amount of film used by existing filmers.

So let us look at the new Ektachrome Super 8 film, priced at US$40 per cartridge. This is rather expensive considering it does not include processing or shipping. I don't know what the production cost is but I would say around US$15 (I will provide my reasoning for this further down). All prices mentioned are in US dollars for consistency.
At $25 profit per cartridge that would be a nice markup I agree. However at $40 per cartridge to buy, how many people have decided not to purchase or to purchase less than they would like to?

Let us now say they were to sell a cartridge at $25 with a profit of $10, how many more would they sell? I would suggest not only more to those that bought some at $40 but also more to those that bought none at all. I would not hesitate to say they could sell 5 times as much at the cheaper price.
Now let's look at the profit difference of selling 1000 versus 5000 units:
Sell at $40 a cartridge with $25 profit so 1000 units would be $25,000 profit.
Sell at $25 a cartridge with $10 profit but 5 x quantity so 5000 units would be $50,000 profit.
Obviously selling more at a lower profit is good for everyone not just Kodak and it would also encourage more services such as processing, camera repairs, new equipment, etc. to be available.

Going back to where I assumed production cost to be $15 let me explain what it's based on.
Checking the Kodak price list one will find that the price for a 16mm 100' roll of film is 50% more than the price of a 50' Super 8 cartridge for each film type. So if 16mm Ektachrome was available it would likely have a selling price of $60 for a 100' roll since the Super 8 version is $40. Other 16mm films are $45 for 100' against $30 per cartridge for each film type, again a 50% price difference.
Since they must be making a profit on 16mm at $60 which I would estimate to be $20 and there is 4 x the film in a 100' roll of 16mm compared to a cartridge of Super 8 one can see the film component to be worth less than $10 in the Super 8 cartridge. Then there is around a $2 cost for the cartridge but there is also a cost for the 16mm spool. Packaging costs for both formats could be similar. Hense I believe my figures are all reasonably believable.
I propose that Super 8 should be sold at US$25 and definitely not more than US$30. There could even be scope to bring it down to US$20.

The Super 8 format was meant to be an affordable film system, and if Kodak would sell it at a more affordable price a lot more people would buy it. That's got to be good for Kodak's bottom line and image and the future of film.

[Will2]

There's not much to discuss...their bean counters run the numbers and determine what they need to sell it for to make a profit. No matter how much enthusiasts and hobbyists buy it will never come close to the economies of scale that film used have.

Yes they made some obscene profits at the height of film sales but now there's simply not enough demand to sustain the factories. I'm honestly surprised they can even sell it for what they are selling it for.

[silverhalide]

This is a costly endeavor for EK. We need to buy as much product as we can, with smiles on our faces, and hope that our demand is sufficient to keep the coating line running.

[Silverdream]

That is true they need volume to keep the coating line going. Cheaper prices will do that.
But I really am not complaining about the cost of film in general but the cost of Super 8.
If 16mm Colour Neg can be sold for $45 per 100' I would like to know the reason 50' of Super 8 is being sold for $30. There is 4 times as much film in the 16mm roll.
There would be howls of protest on Cinematography Forums if they were to sell 100' of 16mm Ektachrome for $160!

[silverhalide]

"There would be howls of protest on Cinematography Forums if they were to sell 100' of 16mm Ektachrome for $160!"

16mm x 100' 7285 was fetching $200ish on ebay before new Ektachrome was announced...

[mr8mm]

Demand at $40 is not a problem for Kodak. They have sold out two production runs and are working on a third. And the EK is available in Europe at this time. Wittner can not keep it in stock the demand is so great. Sorry, if you want S8 you are going to have to pay the price.

If I have any complaint, it is the cost of TRI-X. a year ago the price of S8 TRI-X was about $21. Now is it is $30. Why not keep one low price stock in the catalog? I imagine TRI-X is inexpensive to produce. Too bad someone from Kodak is not on this forum.

[mr8mm]

And Dwayne's Photo is selling EK100D S8 for $48 per cart. Give thanks you can get E100 from Kodak for $40.00

[doug]

Silverdream though does have a point, even if Ektachrome is selling well. I bet it's the enthusiasts buying it now, not the casual folks, who should be encouraged. Many fairly young people have old cameras in their attics and want to try them out again, out of curiosity, and they are potential film-makers. I get asked all the time for super-8 film, but immediately they are put off by the sheer cost. There's no logical reason why super-8 is so expensive compared with 16mm and regular-8. And tri-x too, even in 35mm still cassettes. Kodak maybe have this idea that certain film products are the 'in thing' and they can charge what they like, but that's a very short-sighted approach.

[silverhalide]

Pricing below long-run average costs is a very short-sighted plan also. Eastman Kodak ("EK") has a small product base and revenue stream. Yet they have huge overhead. A coating line + building that sits there all year but for the few times that it coats a master sheet is extremely expensive to own. The costs must be spread across an ever-decreasing amount of product.

EK is not scalping or gouging. They're trying to survive. If they had a donation box, I'd slip a Franklin or two into it.

[Will2]

And Dwayne's Photo is selling EK100D S8 for $48 per cart. Give thanks you can get E100 from Kodak for $40.00

Kodak isn't discounting even for retailers...and now they've broken one of their taboos and gotten into 16mm & 35mm processing just to keep quality processing available. Things are changing.

By the way, the Atlanta lab is really good, highly recommended for 16mm. They even have Kodak pizza boxes for film now. They exist to service The Walking Dead pretty much. No Super 8.

[doug]

Pricing below long-run average costs is a very short-sighted plan also. Eastman Kodak ("EK") has a small product base and revenue stream. Yet they have huge overhead. A coating line + building that sits there all year but for the few times that it coats a master sheet is extremely expensive to own. The costs must be spread across an ever-decreasing amount of product.

EK is not scalping or gouging. They're trying to survive. If they had a donation box, I'd slip a Franklin or two into it.

But surely the coating machines can be used frequently for different emulsions ? I thought they are smaller than they used to be ? Or maybe that hasn't happened.
Ferrania really needs to get its act together and provide some competition.

[Silverdream]

Silverhallide,
To suggest that the coating line is only run a few times a year is far fetched. This Ektachrome run is small scale compared to the other films being coated and I believe it was not even easy to get time on the machine for it.
Kodak is using the coating line for many other films. I wonder if they are coating microfilms on it as that is still sold in quite large quantities.
Just because you have hundreds of dollars to throw around does not mean others can do so too.
The more I look into Super 8 pricing the more I realize we are being gouged and it's time the prices come back to earth.
No one on an ordinary wage can really afford movie film. Where I am Super 8 Ektachrome is being offered by Kodak for $66 each (due to exchange rate), minimum 5 units purchased. Now add on processing $20 plus postage and total is over $90 each. Average wage here for retail work which is what a lot of young people would do is $20 per hour before tax. That's a lot of money for just over 3 minutes filming

[Silverdream]

Doug,
Thanks for seeing there's no logic in the high price of Super 8 compared to other formats.
It has led me to wonder why Kodak is doing this. A few possible reasons may be;
1) They saw the prices old stock was selling on the bay and believe the market is willing to pay high prices.
2) They have decided that because Retro 8 in Japan charges US$38 for 40' of Fuji colour reversal in a Super 8 cartridge they can charge $40 for 50'.
3) They can't meet high production rates at present so are throttling demand.
4) They are attempting to recover possible losses from the Super 8 camera project.

Until there is competition from additional film manufacturers/ suppliers, or a lot of complaints from customers, then these high prices will probably continue.
Like you say these high prices seem short sighted.

[silverhalide]

I didn't mean to sound snooty, and I don't have money to burn.

I also think $40 is high and that the price will limit sales.

That notwithstanding, EK does have very high costs and a much smaller denominator now. I believe, based on discussion I had with an EK employee, that the current batch of E100 is from a single master sheet - something like 54" wide by a mile long, if I recall correctly. In the old days, the coating lines ran frequently, if not around the clock. Now, they/it only run(s) when inventory has been depleted to the point where it makes sense to replenish it.

Think about the fixed costs associated with doing a coating run and then cleaning up. Pipes full of goo have to be purged and cleaned. Ever part of the line has to be cleaned and made idle, Then, when they're ready for another batch, they have to start over, and clean up again.

As for the emulsion, it's not like making kool aid. Emulsion contains crystalline components that have to be grown. The timelines for creation of all the components have to intersect at the right time, and everything has to work properly when the emulsion is ready to go.

It's like hosting a wedding for a million people and trying to serve them all banana splits that aren't melted, all at the same time.

Sorry if I came off as snotty. I'd just like people to have a little sympathy for EK. They are in a struggle for their life. They need our help.

[Will2]

No one on an ordinary wage can really afford movie film. Where I am Super 8 Ektachrome is being offered by Kodak for $66 each (due to exchange rate), minimum 5 units purchased. Now add on processing $20 plus postage and total is over $90 each. Average wage here for retail work which is what a lot of young people would do is $20 per hour before tax. That's a lot of money for just over 3 minutes filming

And that doesn't even include a transfer for people that want to edit on their computer which is pretty much 90% of the people that will shoot it. At least there are some less expensive, film chain options for reversal but minimum $25 for a transfer...much more for a high quality one.

That's where we are. Looks like this run sold out much faster than expected so I'd bet they're thinking they priced it just fine or maybe too low. But believe me, Kodak is not laughing all the way to the bank. Honestly it's amazing that the company is still around after all the horrible mistakes it made and even more amazing that film still lives.

Hopefully they won't make the additional mistake of raising prices again next year and try to go for some quantity sales.