Frame numbering idea for Paul Cotto!

Post by **MovieStuff** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:31 am

Hi, Paul!

A related thread about using the WorkPrinter for temp transfers and then going back to a film edit got me to thinking. Since you are going to be manufacturing your own rolls of DS8, couldn't you offer some with digital numbering on the frameline? I envision using an old style LED number display that sequentially advances for each frame change. Use a slightly modified animation camera to automatically imprint the numbers on the frame line, which could easily be left out during final transfer and would be cropped by most all projectors out there. I have to believe that producing the numbers would be a walk in the park compared to the slitting and perfing of the original stock. You could charge more for the numbered stock. I think it would be useful.

Roger

Post by **Ultrazero** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:53 am

Cool. I was going to suggest petitioning Kodak. But this is probably more realistic.
:lol:

Post by **paulcotto** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:53 am

Man, we think allot alike! I had wondered about that a while back before I was serious about building the perfing machine. I was going to build it into my matte box down in the corner just inside the frame. then you could crop it out in post. Anyone could do it really. just run any film through and you have frame numbers. I had another idea using an ink jet printer head to put frame numbers on after processing. You would need to find the correct ink. Like silver or white I guess? Perhaps one of those DYMO lable makers....hmmmmm

Regards,
Paul Cotto

MovieStuff wrote:Hi, Paul!

A related thread about using the WorkPrinter for temp transfers and then going back to a film edit got me to thinking. Since you are going to be manufacturing your own rolls of DS8, couldn't you offer some with digital numbering on the frameline? I envision using an old style LED number display that sequentially advances for each frame change. Use a slightly modified animation camera to automatically imprint the numbers on the frame line, which could easily be left out during final transfer and would be cropped by most all projectors out there. I have to believe that producing the numbers would be a walk in the park compared to the slitting and perfing of the original stock. You could charge more for the numbered stock. I think it would be useful.

Roger

Post by **MovieStuff** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:05 pm

paulcotto wrote: I was going to build it into my matte box down in the corner just inside the frame. then you could crop it out in post.

Actually, I had considered that, as well. The problem is that it only works on wide angle where you have enough depth of field to see the numbers along with the subject in the distance. Also, exposure is an issue because the numbers would have to be bright enough to register along with your scene that might be shot at, say, f16 on a bright sunny day.

I think that modifying a standard DS8 camera to pre-expose the numbers onto the frameline area or vertically down one side might be a better bet. That way, each roll already has the numbers built in, regardless of how the film is shot. Anyone that wants to load some slit super 8 into those funky Russian carts could use it too.

Roger

Post by **MovieMaker** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:24 pm

DonÃ‚Â´t kill me, if IÃ‚Â´m completely off track here, but:

IsnÃ‚Â´t it possible to do this LED-display in one edge of RogerÃ‚Â´s WorkPrinter or the condenser lens so that the numbers will be captured along with the footage? IsnÃ‚Â´t that easier than modifying a camera or PaulÃ‚Â´s (by the way excellent) piece of machinery?

If the LED just counts from 0-to lets say 999.999 it should be enough for one 50 feet reel. And it shouldnÃ‚Â´t be necessary to start exactly with the first frame (as long as each single frame ist counted). Someone can than match the final cut just by simply count the frames from a significant point or better - a clapper marking.

Just a (maybe weird) idea....

MovieMaker

Post by **MovieStuff** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:15 pm

MovieMaker wrote: IsnÃ‚Â´t it possible to do this LED-display in one edge of RogerÃ‚Â´s WorkPrinter or the condenser lens so that the numbers will be captured along with the footage?

The goal isn't about adding time code reference to the video footage (which can be done in the computer, anyway) but, rather, adding some sort of indentifiable numbers to the actual FILM so that, if you wanted, you could edit on video then cut your original frame accurate. Mattias noted a way to do it for PAL, which is more convenient because you can shoot at 25fps and edit video at 25fps, but here in the States, we shoot at 24fps and edit video at 30fps, so there are 6 artificial frames per second of screen time that have to be accounted for and having the numbers on the film would provide an exact match for conforming your original film, if desired.

Roger

Post by **MovieMaker** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:20 pm

But of course, sorry, my mistake. WasnÃ‚Â´t really thinking before.

By the way: Is Adobe Premiere (5.0 upwards) cabable of adding time code to the footage? Or would I need extra software?

MovieMaker

Post by **MovieMaker** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:20 pm

But of course, sorry, my mistake. WasnÃ‚Â´t really thinking before.

By the way: Is Adobe Premiere (5.0 upwards) cabable of adding time code to the footage? Or would I need extra software?

MovieMaker

Post by **Ultrazero** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:48 pm

MovieStuff wrote:Mattias noted a way to do it for PAL, which is more convenient because you can shoot at 25fps and edit video at 25fps, but here in the States, we shoot at 24fps and edit video at 30fps, so there are 6 artificial frames per second of screen time that have to be accounted for and having the numbers on the film would provide an exact match for conforming your original film, if desired.

Roger

Most of the time true, but Apple Cinema Tools lets you work in a frame for frame accurate environment by removing the pulldown. I've never used it, but that's its main purpose. Of course they don't promote it for use with super8 because of the frame numbering issue. (there is none) But I think it could be a really helpful app if there was a way to cut the original.

http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/cinematools.html

Post by **Ultrazero** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:04 am

paulcotto wrote:Man, we think allot alike! I had wondered about that a while back before I was serious about building the perfing machine. I was going to build it into my matte box down in the corner just inside the frame. then you could crop it out in post. Anyone could do it really. just run any film through and you have frame numbers. I had another idea using an ink jet printer head to put frame numbers on after processing. You would need to find the correct ink. Like silver or white I guess? Perhaps one of those DYMO lable makers....hmmmmm
Regards,
Paul Cotto

Numbering the film after processing is a PERFECT solution. This way we can use any stock we want. From there I guess its a matter a lining up a single frame in your nle with a single frame at the head of your film. Is a frame numbering machine feasible?

for starters, it needs a catchier name.

Post by **ericMartinJarvies** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:41 am

is there any componant small enough (<10x10mm) that currently exists off the shelf that could be hooked to the pilotone feed and triggered accordingly from that per frame? if so, let me know and i will get one and give it a try ... i have a number of cameras taken apart being disected and reconstructed, and it would not be that difficult for me to somehow setup a capture point sometime before or after the gate that takes care of the numbering.

how small is the smallest LED on the market? it should be 4 digits correct?

eric

Filmshooting

Frame numbering idea for Paul Cotto!

Frame numbering idea for Paul Cotto!

Re: Frame numbering idea for Paul Cotto!

Re: Frame numbering idea for Paul Cotto!

whoa