Are there any regular 8mm cameras that run at 70fps?

[Patrick]

I'm considering getting into regular 8mm and am looking at cameras that offer a particularly high frame rate. I know that the Bolex H8 and Canon Reflex Zoom 8 both offer 64fps as their stop speed which is quite impressive. However, are there any R8mm cameras that can get up to 70fps or even faster?

I know that many people reading this will try and steer me towards super 8 and the Beaulieu models. I admit that I used to have a craving for the Beaulieu super 8 cameras such as the 4008 but I no longer have that burning desire. Just about everything to do with those cameras is expensive and a hassle too - having the camera's optical path readjusted after removing the internal filters, putting life back into the NiCad battery, the necessity of buying an Andec pressure plate to ensure stability during filming with high frame rates etc etc. More trouble than what's it's worth. By the way, I do have a Canon 1014 Autozoom Electronic which has a nice 54fps option but I would like something with an even higher frame rate capacity.

I also used to be one of those people who would never use a frame size smaller than super 8 for quality reasons. However, I admit that when I move the projector really close to the screen so that it produces a fairly smallish image, regular 8mm can look quite good (within those sort of limitations.) And Ive seen some quite impressive transfers of regular 8mm to digital that don't look much different to good super 8. So maybe regular 8mm can be a viable alternative after all. Though I'm not too keen on the 16fps standard running speed...!

[slashmaster]

I've been to a lot of flee markets and have never seen one that fast. Being that most regular 8 cameras are wind up I wonder how hard it would be to take one apart and change the governor for more speed?

[Nicholas Kovats]

How fast do you want go? There is currently on eBay a Fastex 8mm Ultra High Speed camera, i.e.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 500wt_1156

If the link is broken search for eBay Item number: 360340480749.

This was originally developed for the military. I cannot find a definitive range of frame rates but it's bigger 16mm cousin shoots at speeds in the multiples of thousands. This camera is probably from the 30s or 40's and I suspect would require some dedicated TLC.

Apparently the original design intent of 2 perf 8mm per 16mm frame area was specific to ultra high speed D/R8 camera systems, i.e. Fastax, Kodak, etc...

I have yet to see any footage from ultra high speed D/R8 or S8 camera systems. Who will be the first?

Good luck with your endeavors.

[bolextech]

It's not uncommon to see a Bolex H camera that hasn't been maintained in decades run much faster than the marked speed because of wear on the unlubricated governor pads. I've clocked some at over 80 fps. Of course, intentionally running the camera in a dried out state like this will only increase wear on the parts and might actually cause breakage.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis

[slashmaster]

Interesting! Exactly how do you clock them accurately?

[bolextech]

I use a Strobotac that will accurately measure RPMs without direct contact with the object.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis

[ECNtoo]

I'm considering getting into regular 8mm and am looking at cameras that offer a particularly high frame rate. I know that the Bolex H8 and Canon Reflex Zoom 8 both offer 64fps as their stop speed which is quite impressive. However, are there any R8mm cameras that can get up to 70fps or even faster?

The Pathe DS8 does 80fps but it ain't what you're looking for.

I know that many people reading this will try and steer me towards super 8 and the Beaulieu models. I admit that I used to have a craving for the Beaulieu super 8 cameras such as the 4008 but I no longer have that burning desire. Just about everything to do with those cameras is expensive and a hassle too - having the camera's optical path readjusted after removing the internal filters, putting life back into the NiCad battery, the necessity of buying an Andec pressure plate to ensure stability during filming with high frame rates etc etc. More trouble than what's it's worth. By the way, I do have a Canon 1014 Autozoom Electronic which has a nice 54fps option but I would like something with an even higher frame rate capacity.

I would never buy a Beaulieu but they are a great camera and with them you have to put up with the same crap that you would with any other camera that was at least half decent. They aren't expensive unless you consider 300 bucks plus or minus to be expensive. If that is expensive then you might want to go digital. Dealing with the filters isn't an issue and you can get a cheap battery that you can wire up and most radio control hobby stores. I bought a battery with a lot of charge for 17 bucks that powered my 5008 really well. The preassure plate is no more or less neeed for the Beaulie cameras than any other camera. Unless it's a Mekel, you have pretty much the same tolerences but for the worst cameras out there.

I also used to be one of those people who would never use a frame size smaller than super 8 for quality reasons. However, I admit that when I move the projector really close to the screen so that it produces a fairly smallish image, regular 8mm can look quite good (within those sort of limitations.) And Ive seen some quite impressive transfers of regular 8mm to digital that don't look much different to good super 8. So maybe regular 8mm can be a viable alternative after all. Though I'm not too keen on the 16fps standard running speed...!

The diff between r8 and s8 is huge. Not sure how you can't see the difference but the noticable difference would be more than s16 vs super16.

[Patrick]

The diff between r8 and s8 is huge. Not sure how you can't see the difference

Hmmm….that depends on what medium you’re referring to and the level of magnification. When viewed on an average sized screen, regular 8mm is not that impressive at all – the projected image is soft and grainy – noticeably inferior to super 8. Seeing that difference for the first time between these two 8mm formats, I would have never really considered shooting on regular 8mm. However, moving the projector much closer to the screen (or a white wall) where you see a considerably smaller image, regular 8mm does have very respectable definition and sharpness – it does look quite good within those sort of limitations (low magnifications.)

I admit that I have only seen a few examples of regular 8mm transferred to digital (mainly workprinter transfers etc viewed on youtube and vimeo) and the quality doesn’t seem that much different to good super 8 – watching clips that take up about a quarter of the space of a computer monitor. Though in these cases, I’m assuming that the footage was shot on extremely fine grain film stock. They certainly didn’t have the massive grain that can be seen in the JFK assassination footage. By the way, I do know that they were shot fairly recently by 8mm enthusiasts like us who have access to some fairly modern film stocks.

but the noticable difference would be more than s16 vs super16.

S16 vs Super 16? I hope you’re not meaning Super 16 vs Super 16?

[Patrick]

Edit: Depends on which 'display medium' you're referring to.

How fast do you want go? There is currently on eBay a Fastex 8mm Ultra High Speed camera, i.e.

Apparently the original design intent of 2 perf 8mm per 16mm frame area was specific to ultra high speed D/R8 camera systems, i.e. Fastax, Kodak, etc...

Good luck with your endeavors.

I'm mainly interested in the 70 / 80 fps range but a high speed camera would certainly be great fun to play around with. Of course such cameras require servicing which is supposedly quite expensive. If there are no common usage regular 8mm cameras that run at 70 or 80 fps, then I'll just have to be content with 64fps.

[BMasson]

Isn't 64fps fast enough? When projecting movies such as: Charlie Chaplin, L&H and feature films, Super-8 is the way to go. But when it comes to my own personal filming, reg-8 is my format of choice. You ruffled my feathers when you stated that reg-8 looks OK when the projector is up close and the picture is small. I project 19 feet away from my screen. With a 15mm lens, I get a picture size that is over 6 feet(2meters) wide. With a scene that has proper lighting and exsposure, I can walk right up to the screen, and their is NO GRAIN! For the most part, I'm using Plus-X or 100D. Of course you need a good camera with a good lens, proper lighting and exsposure etc, to achieve this. I'm not here to start a format feud; It's just that the reg-8 path is the way I want to work. I sense that you are dipping your toes in the reg-8 pool; I say; Dive right in. Brad M

[Patrick]

Isn't 64fps fast enough?

That depends on the subject matter. For sports with human competitors, 54fps is perfectly adequate. However, for wildlife, 54fps can be a great choice for some animals but simply won’t cut it for other animals. Of course in those latter cases, 64fps won’t be much greater either.

You ruffled my feathers when you stated that reg-8 looks OK when the projector is up close and the picture is small.

Oops! It sounds like you have a lot of experience with regular 8mm then. I’m only going on my very little experience of using this particular 8mm format. I admit that I have never projected my own or any friends’ or relatives’ regular 8mm footage. I have mainly projected those condensed reels available from film studios – essentially reduction prints made from larger film gauges – mainly documentaries and travelogues etc. And they were all projected on a Eumig super 8 projector with a dual-guage capability. However, I would like to be proved wrong about the limitations of regular 8mm if I ever get the chance to see your work or others’ work is real life.

By the way, I have a query about clockwork cameras. Obviously, it's not a good idea to keep them wound up over a long period of time - for example in storage. However, will it do any harm if they remain in a wound up state over the course of a day or a few days? I would prefer not to leave them that way but there may be some circumstances where you have wound the camera up and are just about to film but something happens (the subjects runs off etc) and you are left with a wound up camera, waiting for another filming opportunity which may or may not present itself again soon.

[ECNtoo]

The diff between r8 and s8 is huge. Not sure how you can't see the difference

Hmmm….that depends on what medium you’re referring to and the level of magnification. When viewed on an average sized screen, regular 8mm is not that impressive at all – the projected image is soft and grainy – noticeably inferior to super 8. Seeing that difference for the first time between these two 8mm formats, I would have never really considered shooting on regular 8mm. However, moving the projector much closer to the screen (or a white wall) where you see a considerably smaller image, regular 8mm does have very respectable definition and sharpness – it does look quite good within those sort of limitations (low magnifications.)

I admit that I have only seen a few examples of regular 8mm transferred to digital (mainly workprinter transfers etc viewed on youtube and vimeo) and the quality doesn’t seem that much different to good super 8 – watching clips that take up about a quarter of the space of a computer monitor. Though in these cases, I’m assuming that the footage was shot on extremely fine grain film stock. They certainly didn’t have the massive grain that can be seen in the JFK assassination footage. By the way, I do know that they were shot fairly recently by 8mm enthusiasts like us who have access to some fairly modern film stocks.

but the noticable difference would be more than s16 vs super16.

S16 vs Super 16? I hope you’re not meaning Super 16 vs Super 16?

Any image gets better the smaller you make it. I can totally see the difference between r8 and s8 when projected on a screen. Huge difference. Even SD cable images look great on a really small screen. I should have said std16 and super 16.

[beamascope]

64 seems the norm on many of them or even just 48. I have a small D8L Bolex which does 64fps. I must say it is probably the finest 8mm camera I have seen. It's quite small and runs great after a home cleaning/oiling. Through the lens metering, backwind and variable shutter. Shuts off before the wind runs down so you don't get fast motion footage at the end of a wind, really a slick little camera and NO batteries.
http://www.bolexcollector.com/cameras/d8l.html

[IShootR8]

How fast do you want go? There is currently on eBay a Fastex 8mm Ultra High Speed camera, i.e.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 500wt_1156

And its only a mere 40 pounds! (weight, not cost) It looks like the love child of a circular saw and movie camera.

[BMasson]

Greetings Patrick, I appreciate your interest in reg-8; you would make a great convert. When it comes to the spring wound motors, most of these cameras were very well made. I have a number of Bolex models and a Carena, leaving them wound up for a short period of time doesn't seem to bother them in the least. When it comes to showing my own work; Projecting onto a screen is the best way, I have done two low-cost video transfers onto a DVD, but the results were not very impressive. I know good transfers of reg-8 can be done; I'm just going to have to spend some money to reach that quality level. I do have a transfer project in mind. I have a friend who lives nearby. He and his wife have a bluegrass band. I suggested to him that we we shoot a music video of his band in reg-8, and do a high-end ($$$$$) transfer to video. This is as far as I've got. The filming part is easy: Getting five members of a band to get together and do this all on the same day is next to impossible! Hopefuly in the end I can prevail. Nice chatting with you Patrick. Brad M