Elmo 1000 S Macro

[Andersens Tears]

Hi all - I've searched the archives for this one - but no specific details were there.

It may sound absolutley silly but I really would like to have one of these cameras ever since I saw one being used in the 1980 BBC Drama 'The Flipside of Domminick Hyde'.

I've found that it's a 40/160 camera so apparently it will overexpose 64T by 2/3 of a stop. Does anyone have one of these and know if it has a manual overide to enable compensation?

I've also seen that it reads 100D - will the Wittnerchrome 100D stock work?

So many questions - but it's my birthday on Sunday and I'd like to treat myself!

Thanks to anyone with any help!

Jamie

[Jim Carlile]

That's a pretty neat, pretty big camera, totally solid and reliable. And yes, I do believe you can go to manual mode and dial in the exposure-- but the meter needs to be working with batteries in order to do that. A bum meter makes the camera useless.

You know, it only shoots at 18fps-- and for 100 ASA daylight, I believe you'd need to go manual exposure. You can shoot 160 at 100 ASA automatically, but only tungsten filtered down (technically, the camera knows it has 160 film, but compensates down one stop with the filter in-- that's how the 100 rating is figured.)

The minute you take the filter out of the path, the meter thinks you have 160 film, and exposes accordingly without exposure compensation. So I don't see how it can read 100 on its own, without the 85 filter in place, which you don't want with 100D.

[Andersens Tears]

Thanks Jim for your reply!

I swear I’ve seen a picture of the camera that shows switchable 18 and 24 fps – maybe I was wrong!

I’m trying to weigh up the pros and cons of getting one – The lens looks fantastic but you’ve got the 40/160 asa thing to overcome. Saying that I’ve got a Bauer 715XL Microcomputer that has got a super fantastic lens and only 40/160 asa capability – I’ve not really played with that enough yet!

I guess I don’t need another camera like this, but I just love the look of the Elmo!

Jamie

[filmbuff]

I'm pretty sure its got 24 fps. I had one briefly and the thing I remember most was how quiet it was. Maybe it was just that one but it was like Nizo quiet.

[Lunar07]

This camera has 24fps. I do not know though if it reads 100D correctly or not.

Edit: Thinking about it, this camera should support 100D if cartridge does NOT have a lower filter notch. Rule is: Camera will meter at 100 if there is a filter notch and filter is engaged with a 160 cartridge, OR if there is no filter notch which in turn disengages the filter.

[Jim Carlile]

You're quite right--my mistake, I'm looking at a picture of it right now, and there's the slide switch. It's one of the few big sound Elmos that has 24fps. The smaller versions, the 600S and 300S, only do 18. Other than that they are the same camera.

I love the big Elmos. They're undervalued right now, and there are many, many of them in the U.S. In the 70's they probably outsold every other sound camera by five-to-one, at the very least-- you rarely see anything else on the market regularly. And I like their quietness, too. A good choice.

[fogo]

Hi Jamie, quick Flipside of Dominic Hyde reference here..my only memory of that series is that it was the same actor who played Angel Clare in the Tess of the D'Urbevilles movie (dont know his name, dodgy perm if i recall) and in the first episode (if indeed it was a series) when asked his name calls himself Gilbey, when looking at a bottle of Gin in a pub optic...im probably completely wrong about all this,,,,,excuse my if im wrong but it was a very long time ago
ade

[super8man]

I just remembered that I have a Elmo 3000AF profiled on my website - is it similar to yours? Probably.

Link is below.

Cheers,
Mike

[Jim Carlile]

The 1000S series is Elmos's first sound camera, the 3000AF is about their last. The 1000 is gloriously big and bulky, and I believe it needs an extra battery, either for the meter or the sound or both. This is different than their later models.

About the 100D question: I might be wrong, but like most 40/160 cameras, the meter will only rate at ASA 100 with an 85 filter laid over 160 tungsten stock. In other words, you put 160 tungsten film in the camera, and if you want to shoot in "daylight," you slide the filter switch, which puts the necessary correction filter in the path and adjusts the meter to compensate for an 'effective' film speed of 100.

But that's quite a different thing than just shooting straight 100D without a filter. I don't think these-- or most 40/160 cameras-- can do this. Their instruction manuals are a little misleading when they say something like "daylight, ASA 25 and 100; tungsten, ASA 40 and 160" because the only way you can get the daylight ratings is to throw an 85 filter in the path-- which you definitely do NOT want to do with a daylight stock.

Solution? There are two. Either meter manually (the best way, with practice) or somehow grab a pair of pliers and physically yank the 85 filter out of the path. That way, when you slide the filter switch to "daylight," a la daylight conditions, you'll get the adjusted film speed at the meter, but you won't have the filter in the way spoiling your daylight stock.

Remember, when these cameras say "ASA 100" able or something, what they mean is that they can rate the meter at 100 only with the 85 filter thrown in the path. And what's happening in reality is that the "100" is only an effective film speed rating, derived by the meter circuitry automatically compensating by an f/stop or so.

[Andersens Tears]

Hi Jamie, quick Flipside of Dominic Hyde reference here..my only memory of that series is that it was the same actor who played Angel Clare in the Tess of the D'Urbevilles movie (dont know his name, dodgy perm if i recall) and in the first episode (if indeed it was a series) when asked his name calls himself Gilbey, when looking at a bottle of Gin in a pub optic...im probably completely wrong about all this,,,,,excuse my if im wrong but it was a very long time ago
ade

Ade - your memory is pretty good! There was a one off play in 1980 called The Filpside of Dominick Hyde - A very youthful looking Colin Firth (Harry Booth in Spooks) A time travel story where he goes back in time from the 22nd Century to London in 1980 and sows the seeds of his ancestry. At the end of the play you see an Elmo 1000s being used.

2 years later the BBC made a sequal called 'Another Flip of Dominck' - It's interesting to note that the Super 8 camera from 1980 is now replaced by an early video camera in 1982 !!!

Check out these links:

http://www.bondle.co.uk/dominick/index.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/news/cult/200 ... 8321.shtml

[Andersens Tears]

The 1000S series is Elmos's first sound camera, the 3000AF is about their last. The 1000 is gloriously big and bulky, and I believe it needs an extra battery, either for the meter or the sound or both. This is different than their later models.

About the 100D question: I might be wrong, but like most 40/160 cameras, the meter will only rate at ASA 100 with an 85 filter laid over 160 tungsten stock. In other words, you put 160 tungsten film in the camera, and if you want to shoot in "daylight," you slide the filter switch, which puts the necessary correction filter in the path and adjusts the meter to compensate for an 'effective' film speed of 100.

But that's quite a different thing than just shooting straight 100D without a filter. I don't think these-- or most 40/160 cameras-- can do this. Their instruction manuals are a little misleading when they say something like "daylight, ASA 25 and 100; tungsten, ASA 40 and 160" because the only way you can get the daylight ratings is to throw an 85 filter in the path-- which you definitely do NOT want to do with a daylight stock.

Solution? There are two. Either meter manually (the best way, with practice) or somehow grab a pair of pliers and physically yank the 85 filter out of the path. That way, when you slide the filter switch to "daylight," a la daylight conditions, you'll get the adjusted film speed at the meter, but you won't have the filter in the way spoiling your daylight stock.

Remember, when these cameras say "ASA 100" able or something, what they mean is that they can rate the meter at 100 only with the 85 filter thrown in the path. And what's happening in reality is that the "100" is only an effective film speed rating, derived by the meter circuitry automatically compensating by an f/stop or so.

Jim, once again you have proved masterful on the subject! Thanks for all the info. I guess 100D is probably to expensive to be messing about with it in a 40/160 camera! I'll save that stock for my Canon 1014XL-S. I'd still like to get the Elmo tho and have a go with some 64T and manual exposures!

All the best Jamie

[Lunar07]

The <b>standard</b> CALLS for supporting 100D which does not have a filter notch on its cartridge on a camera that supports 160T (100 with the filter). I know this for a fact from my Eumigs.
Check the Super8 Wiki for further info on this subject.
Assume that this Elmo will support 100D unless ou try it and find out otherwise.

Edit: There was a huge discussion on this topic months ago.
FYI: Real question on establishing if this Elmo supports 100D is to check if this camera has a pin sensor that senses existence of filter notch. 100D does not have a filter notch. If pin exists, it will be depressed. This tells the camera the following:
Hey cam, no filter notch, measure distance from center to lower edge of upper notch. Give me the equivalent ASA of a tungsten balanced ASA. Then treat the film at an ASA equivalent to the tungsten speed with a filter engaged in front of it. Cam replies back: this distance establishes ASA at 160T. Cam is told then: Fine, no filter notch, set ASA at 100 and NEVER engage filter.
So, test for estabishing support:
Does this Elmo have this filter notch sensing pin, then YES this Elmo supports the 100D (since it supports 160T). Does it NOT have this pin: then NO this Elmo does not support 100D.

The 1000S series is Elmos's first sound camera, the 3000AF is about their last. The 1000 is gloriously big and bulky, and I believe it needs an extra battery, either for the meter or the sound or both. This is different than their later models.

About the 100D question: I might be wrong, but like most 40/160 cameras, the meter will only rate at ASA 100 with an 85 filter laid over 160 tungsten stock. In other words, you put 160 tungsten film in the camera, and if you want to shoot in "daylight," you slide the filter switch, which puts the necessary correction filter in the path and adjusts the meter to compensate for an 'effective' film speed of 100.

But that's quite a different thing than just shooting straight 100D without a filter. I don't think these-- or most 40/160 cameras-- can do this. Their instruction manuals are a little misleading when they say something like "daylight, ASA 25 and 100; tungsten, ASA 40 and 160" because the only way you can get the daylight ratings is to throw an 85 filter in the path-- which you definitely do NOT want to do with a daylight stock.

Solution? There are two. Either meter manually (the best way, with practice) or somehow grab a pair of pliers and physically yank the 85 filter out of the path. That way, when you slide the filter switch to "daylight," a la daylight conditions, you'll get the adjusted film speed at the meter, but you won't have the filter in the way spoiling your daylight stock.

Remember, when these cameras say "ASA 100" able or something, what they mean is that they can rate the meter at 100 only with the 85 filter thrown in the path. And what's happening in reality is that the "100" is only an effective film speed rating, derived by the meter circuitry automatically compensating by an f/stop or so.

Jim, once again you have proved masterful on the subject! Thanks for all the info. I guess 100D is probably to expensive to be messing about with it in a 40/160 camera! I'll save that stock for my Canon 1014XL-S. I'd still like to get the Elmo tho and have a go with some 64T and manual exposures!

All the best Jamie

[Jim Carlile]

I notice that there's a lot of confusion over this topic, some of which is my own, I admit. But after poring through about 15 years worth of 'Movie Maker" magazines and a few instruction manuals, here's some clarification, I hope.

Yes, the Elmo 1000S most likely has a bottom filter pin-- the later 350 SL does, as do the 612/1012 sound cameras. But this has nothing to do with anything but that when a non type A or B film cartridge is used without a filter notch, the only thing that the 'pushed-in pin' does is permanently disable the 85 filter with that particular cartridge. But it also-- and this is the important point--it also cancels the filter factor correction. More on this later.

Here's what's really going on:

The 40/160 cameras such as the sound Elmos only have the one top meter pin. It's either out, or it's pushed in. Low speed films like Kodachrome 40 and Plus X push it in, to tell the meter that the film speed is 40 ASA. High speed films like Ektachrome 160, Tri-X, Ektachrome G, 7242, 7244, etc. have the top cartridge speed notch extended to leave the pin out, thus telling the meter that the film speed setting should be 160.

That's it-- it's either ASA 40, or it's ASA 160. But most of the conventional color film stocks at these advertised film speeds are tungsten-sensitive at these higher rated ASA's, meaning they're rated for artificial light. What happens when you want to go outdoors?

You need to put some sort of 85 correction filter in the film path. But since there is a filter factor involved, the camera needs to know this in order to correct for the exposure if you don't pop the filter over the lens itself. And the ASA will no longer be the 40, or 160. It will be less.

So how was this achieved?

With super 8, the idea was ease and economy, so most new film stocks were designed to be dual use, both indoors and outdoors. That meant that they were balanced for tungsten light first, and could be 85 filtered for outdoor use. With most cameras, a switch throws an internal correction filter into the path when you need it for outdoor work. But because the filter absorbs some light, and because it is placed beyond the sight of the exposure meter itself, the meter needs to adjust for the light-loss. By design, cameras automatically factor this light loss into the meter reading when the filter is switched into the light path. That factor reduces the EFFECTIVE film speed from 160 to 100 ASA, or 40 to 25.

Remember, most color films were designed to be dual use, indoors and outdoors. Because of this, the conventional, old fashioned films had a notch cut into the cartridge, in order to allow the filter to be used with a camera that had a filter pin (the only film I remember that did not have a notch was Ektachrome 'G' ?)

So why do some cameras have filter pins? If there was no cartridge notch, and your camera had a filter pin, it got pushed in and the filter was not useable. This was a failsafe protection for stocks that you did not EVER want to use a filter with, such as 100D. The same thing happened when you used an attached movielight-- it automatically pushed out the 85 filter NO MATTER WHAT so you could never ruin your shot.

But-- and this is key-- pushing in the pin not only keeps the filter out, no matter how you've thrown the filter switch, it also CANCELS the corrective filter factor.

To put it even more simply-- and experimentation may prove me wrong, I've never used 100D-- if the filter pin is pushed in by the no-notch 100D cartridge, the only thing that's going to happen with most of these cameras is that the filter won't be in the path. There won't be any automatic filter factor correction--again, it's cancelled by the pin being pushed in-- and the camera's ASA meter rating will be determined solely by the top meter pin. I've never seen this particular notch, but 40/160 cameras can only rate at 40 or 160.

On the Nizos and other fuller featured cameras, there is a series of top pins that adjust to all manner of film speed notch cuttings (Lenny Lipton's book gives an interesting detail of all the various Kodak notch specs, everything from ASA 10 to 640.) These cameras can read an almost dizzying linear array of film speeds. But in most cameras, it's either one pin in or pin out, ASA 40 or 160, or 25 and 100 with the filter in the path and the meter corrected accordingly by the switch. That's the only way you're going to get an effective film speed of ASA 100. And it's only "effective" because it's merely the rough equivalent of what ASA 100 would be-- the meter just opens the iris up a bit to compensate for the filter, and they call the reduced sensitivity "ASA 100."

Bottom line: since many S8 cameras have bottom filter sensing pins, that means that all of them should be able to shoot 100D according to Lunar's description of how it works. But they don't all, so I don't think most cameras can without the 85 filter in the path and corrected thusly to the equivalent 100 ASA by the automatic meter compensation. That's the only way they can meter at 100 ASA: with the filter switched in-line and the meter compensating for the indicated 160 film speed.

And as above, most of these 40/160 cameras don't measure the speed notch distance. It's just pin in or out. Those that do, can run a variety of ASA speeds, and don't have the problem in the first place. And again, Lunar's explanation would mean that 'G' film would run at ASA 100, and it didn't. It ran at approximately 160.

I think the confusion about all of this derives from two things: camera literature that misleadingly claims "ASA 160 and 100," and the fact that most big cameras with a lower filter pin can also read a wide variety of films speeds, because they have more than one upper pin to do so. But THAT'S how they're doing it-- it has nothing to do with the filter pin.

[Jim Carlile]

P.S. Lunar, it's interesting, it may very well be that some cameras note a 'filter pin in/check film speed, then rate at filter speed' kind of tactic. If anything, Eumigs would be the ones to do this-- they had all sorts of clever features, and something like fixing to that kind of standard would be a good way of offering increased film speeds without too much extra engineering. The 880 PMA is a good example of what they could do when it came to being different than most manufacturers. But I don't think it's typical of most 40/160 cameras.

Since there were few if any 'notchless' super 8 films ever offered, I wonder if this standard was utilized much. Eumig I could see.

What's the experience with 100D users? Is some of this film in reality being rated at 160, and still coming out good? This kind of latitude wouldn't surprise me-- I wonder if that's what's actually happening with some of these cameras?

[super8man]

Jim, I think you pretty much nailed it all - this concept is one of those things that is almost impossible to describe in words (but you did a fine job) so in the end, people simply need to see it for themselves with their own camera. And, as you mention, it seems every camera manufacturer went out of their way to reinvent the resolving asa method, sometimes used different methods on each model of camera.

I like your writeup. thanks!
Mike