day for night

[adamkat22]

i want to shoot a scene that should seem like dusk or night. i've tried closing hte iris a stop or two with color film to fake nightfall, but this project is black and white. any tips to make it look more realistic?

would i be better off just shooting right after sunset in the 15-20 minutes before its too dark? if so, you think plusx or trix is a better bet?

[wado1942]

I was just researching this last night. Actually, it's better to use ND filters to reduce the exposure because in low light situations the camera has to have a wide open iris. Simply stopping down the iris will give a HUGE DoF which subconciously will tell the audience that there's a lot of light present on scene. I'd try to keep the iris at F2 if possible and let it be underexposed by maybe 2 stops. You'll still have excessive highlights but you can pull down those highlights in post a bit. Also, a slight yellow tint might help as moonlight is 4100K.

BTW, I'd use Plus-X. It's just a better film in general and it'll help you keep an open iris.

[adamkat22]

so sorry for the ignorance but i don't have a photo background and am still learning....
i haven't worked with filters yet. i have a minolta xl401 that i will most likely be using (or possibly a nizo s800). do i need to get nd filters specifically for these cameras.

also, basically you are saying i need to put on an nd filter that will bring the light registering in the meter at two stops above 2, and then stop it down to 2?

?

[mattias]

You have to describe the scene first. Are there light sources in the frame? Sky? Water? And so on. This is much more important than filters or stocks for the success of dfn, even though the suggestions so far are spot on. /matt

[adamkat22]

ok. well its a zombie flick, and so actually if i don't come close to pulling off day for night i'm not concerned, because it will just look that much cornier. but i thought it would be good practice. the shot is basically zombies walking down a desert road. there will be sunlight, and i could be flexible and put the sun in whatever position would work best. i'm in arizona though, and the sun is intense and there are never really clouds.

[adamkat22]

oh sorry, and i won't be able to avoid having sky in the picture, but there will be no water. there are a few cars that drive the road and i imagine they will reflect a bit of sunlight.

because i'm still learning, i think i'm interested in knowing what my easiest option is, as well as some of the more technical ones...if there is a spectrum of possibility.

[mattias]

desert in bright sun is the best condition to create a believable day for night, i've shot some cool dfn slides in the sonora desert myself. i suggest you use a red filter to darken the sky, it will become almost black, then block the scene in a direction where the sun is crosslighting the scene. it's better to do it later in the day when it's not directly above.

also make sure you bounce enough light into the faces of the people. you will be underexposing the sunlight by at least one stop so the faces will be around three stops under otherwise, which means black on tri-x. remember you're trying to darken the background to create the illusion but the foreground can be lit quite a bit as long as it's dim. shiny boards to get some sparkle in the eyes can be effective but not if it makes the actors squint. if the faces become very flat, which happens sometimes with red filters depending on the skin color and direction of the light, you can add a green filter as well. this will cut many many stops so achieving underexposure without nd will be easy.

now to the hard part: if there are cars you're pretty much smoked so you need to figure out a way to frame them out. the reason is the headlights, which will be off or at best severely undersposed compared to how they look at night. if you need to have cars in the frame you can try putting the lights on high beam. it really only works when it's heavily overcast or near sunset but it will be better than nothing and since you don't mind corny give it a try. sounds like fun, go ahead, and please let us see some results.

/matt

[adamkat22]

where do i get a red filter to fit either a minolta xl401 or a nizo s800? i imagine there are many kinds of red filters? i don't have anything to bounce light on the actors, nor an extra hand if i did, but i will try a test roll of that just witht he red filter and stopping it down. thanks...and by the way, that music video you did was the shit.

[mattias]

where do i get a red filter to fit either a minolta xl401 or a nizo s800?

camera shop. they will also have rings to make it fit the threads on both your cameras.

i imagine there are many kinds of red filters?

not really. it's just red. if they have several strengths go for the full one.

i don't have anything to bounce light on the actors

anything that's white or shiny works, styrofoam, bedsheets, space blankets whatever. a big (4x8?) piece of styrofoam leaning against your tripod directly under the camera works pretty great.

that music video you did was the shit.

thanks a lot. i'm actually thinking of doing some dfn for the next one. i tend to write pitches based on ideas i wanna try almost as much as they're based on the song, and if they buy it it's easier to motivate myself with the ridiculously low pay i usually get for the job. ;-) i have an idea taking place in a forest by a beach. i'll use the sun's reflection in the water as a fake moon. could be very cool.

/matt

[David M. Leugers]

According to Charles G. Clarke, award winning cinematographer, he recommended using a red 23 filter and to not correct for it which will give you the proper underexposure of B+W film for day-for-night. Properly lit faces will appear chalky white (great for zombies!) but if you want faces to appear more normal to add a 56 Green filter to the 23 Red filter. Use a filter factor of 6 for this combination which will give you the correct exposure for day-for-night.
I have never had occassion to try this, but I thought it might be useful info. He was a great B+W cinematographer.


David M. Leugers

[wado1942]

What about yellow filters? They will darken the blue sky but leave green and red alone basically right?

[mattias]

Correct, but I don't think they make yellow filters deep enough. Red plus green is yellow, but much much deeper. A regular yellow filter doesn't darken the sky that much. /matt

[Dr_Strangelove]

Definately go with the darkest red filter you can find for the extreme dark sky, heres the reason why:


It was taken using an orange filter and the sky is still very light grey