as much as i love super 8, what about 16mm?

[dr3wrocks]

I got a super 8 camera (a technicolor brand one) from a garage sale, and eventually wanted to try it out. I started by getting a few more cameras from ebay. my current favorite is a bell & howell sound camera that i've been shooting all my footage on.

it came with a few cartridges, kodachrome, one of them walmart lost, the other two were processed okay. one had mostly already been used and was footage from a birthday party, the other was mine and i was thrilled to see it (i have no idea what was on the one walmart did not return to me).

i have since shot two more cartridges, which were ektachrome 64t that i shouldn't have given to walmart, i've learned. I'm still wondering whether or not I'll ever get those back.

As I do love filming and hope to make something worth watching one of these days, it has come to my attention that it's really really expensive to film. Super 8 is of course very easy and straightforward snice you just bang a cartridge into there and send it off when you're done.

But, what about 16mm? Is there a guide anywhere that I can look at? I have seen on B&H photo video single and double perf film, and while I've heard of 16mm and super 16, i have yet to find any conclusive information, and searching for cameras on ebay yields me mostly antiques, whereas looking for super 8 cameras was easy.

Or, is it simply that? Super 8 being a simple consumer-targeted stock, and 16mm being utterly technical? I don't mind using vintage cameras, but it is nice to find something that I can figure out. Is it worth my while as a novice to even mess with 16mm? Is there a camera that is suitable for the beginner? Any guidance would be nice, and I apologize if this is an innapropriate forum to post this in.

[mattias]

just get a camera, any of them as long as it's working, and dive in. it's more technical for sure, but it only takes an hour or so to get everything, instead of the two minutes for super 8. once the camera is rolling it's actually easier since the larger the format the more forgiving, and post options are readily available in most cities around the world. have fun.

/matt

[dr3wrocks]

neat. i sort of figured that that is what it would come down to, i guess. that's what i did with super 8 anyway.

[Joe Gioielli]

I haven't shot that much of it, but what I have shot I love. I have 200 ft waiting to be sent out for process and I can't wait.

If you have a projector, you may want to start with some reversal stock.

I have a K3 and I really love it. You should be able to get one off ebay for about $200. Get a good light meter. And above all, get some books. Everything is manual.

Best wishes
Joe

[audadvnc]

You might want to check out the 16mm forum at

http://www.cinematography.com

I prefer 16 to Super 8 in many cases. It's more flexible in use (but more manual oversight needed), the resultant image has a wider range of looks (from trashy to HD+ quality) and it's easier to develop at home in your sink. With the proper equipment and workflow you can make a sync sound feature film, and the post production facilities respect it as a smaller sibling to 35mm, rather than an overblown Super 8. Recans and overstock film is cheap and readily available - I've bought and used thousands of feet of eBay specials, with hardly any problems (just don't expect it to give you perfect results).

So get a Filmo, Bolex, K3 and get to it.

[Esoteric]

I too have been seriously considering trying out 16mm, and the threads so far on this subject have been interesting.

The question I would ask, though, is; is there an electrically/battery operated camera with power zoom available? I don't think I've seen one anywhere. I just feel it might be a nuisance to keep having to re-wind a K3 or similar in the middle of a scene. What are the thoughts on this?

Any further advice or input would be most gratefully received, not only by myself, but I'm sure by others who might also be venturing into this area.

Many thanks,

[BigBeaner]

I actually really like 16mm though I recently got bit by the super 8 bug again, just to save on cost and the sheer fact that the cameras and carts are smaller and easier to carry (i'm planning on some traveling). I've shot a whole lot of plus-x and even 200t, 500t and fuji 250T and it's just beautiful and when you look at the images you feel really accomplished, it looks like a real movie if you handle it that way and you can hold the film and really get to see the image unlike the tiny super 8. Once again I agree with getting a bolex or a K3 (I like the feel of the K3 more).

The question I would ask, though, is; is there an electrically/battery operated camera with power zoom available? I don't think I've seen one anywhere. I just feel it might be a nuisance to keep having to re-wind a K3 or similar in the middle of a scene. What are the thoughts on this?

Yes there are cameras that offer this just they will cost a lot more. Consider renting. It gets annoying cranking the K3 just because how the key is made but you'll live through it and the shorter 100ft loads.

[Will2]

The question I would ask, though, is; is there an electrically/battery operated camera with power zoom available? I don't think I've seen one anywhere. I just feel it might be a nuisance to keep having to re-wind a K3 or similar in the middle of a scene. What are the thoughts on this?

What you are describing is a Canon Scoopic. I have a K3 and a Scoopic MS and while I love changing lenses out on the K3, the Scoopic is really easy to use and load and you don't have to worry about winding (which will wear you out if you're used to Super 8).

Scoopics are in the $300-$700 range but are worth every penny. I've heard its best to stay away from the early grey colored versions and go with the Scoopic M, MS or MN which are newer models.

The colorist I use was amazed by some Vision2 50D stock I shot at the Texas State Fair. It was extremely sharp. You'll find these Scoopics work great in the middle F stop range but get a little soft at the extremes so just select your stock speed as best you can to meet the light conditions.

The autoexposure is great too, it doesn't seem to "breathe" like many super 8 autoexposure systems... only drastic changes in light are noticable. Also you can do a cool little transition trick by manually opening the iris all the way (and focus like this) then start to shoot and the autoexposure will bring the iris down to the correct exposure giving a cool white flash effect that everyone tries to emulate in their editing software anyway.

[Esoteric]

Hi Will2,

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with the Canon, but I was beginning to consider a new K3 as currently being advertised on eBay, with a built-in zoom lens, rather than the 3-turret model. Buy-it-now price of £100 or thereabouts. What do you reckon on this camera as a starter, or should I bite the bullet and go for the Canon straight away.

I should say I have shot many miles of Standard 8 and Super 8 film over the years, but I still prefer Standard 8 out of the two!!! Present cameras are Bauer S409XL and S609XL for Super, and Sankyo Auto 5X for Standard.

Just for interest's sake, my projectors are Elmo ST-1200 HD M, Elmo E-80, and Eumig S810D.

I shall also be buying a 16mm projector, and am thinking of either an Eiki RT model or an Ampro. Any thoughts in this direction?

Thanks.

[Will2]

Sounds like you're talking about the K100 from Kodak. That's another great 16mm spring wound camera. The spring on that one lasts longer than any other camera I've seen, about 50 seconds I think.

The problem with the K100 on both the Turret or the non-turret version is the lack of reflex viewfinder. Focus is by best guess or measure the distance. I have a 3-lens K100 as well and love it, but the non-reflex thing means it will sit on the shelf while I use my Russian K-3 or my Canon Scoopic MS.

K100's can be found for under $100 on eBay, K3's around $175 and Scoopics from $300-600 probably. They are worth the extra money and are much newer than the K100's. My K100 is from 1956.

Also remember these cameras are much bigger than you're used to with Super 8, but what an amazing picture!

Here's A Kodak K-100...



Here's A K-3...



Here's a Scoopic...

[Will2]

I actually really like 16mm though I recently got bit by the super 8 bug again, just to save on cost and the sheer fact that the cameras and carts are smaller and easier to carry

I found that because I was having my Super 8 transfered by decent telecine houses anyway that my costs were only more due to stock, and because there are more shops processing 16mm, the costs only a little more on processing.

(50ft of Super 8 = 100ft 16mm in running time)

Kodak Vision2 200T 50ft. Super 8: $15.15
Kodak Vision2 200T 100 ft. 16mm: $36.48

Processing 50ft Super 8: $13.00
Processing 100ft 16mm: $18.00 (or as low as $14 at some places)

[BigBeaner]

Oh ya no doubt, there's not much of a leap in cost between the two sizes and even though 16mm is a bit more, it's completely worth it for the image. I just really highly reccomend giving 16mm, sorry if I made it sound like overly expensive, it's more like i've been shooting moreso on 16mm so when I go to super 8 it's cheaper, unlike super 8 to 16mm it seems more... if that makes sense.

[sk360]

All I ever had when using any Russian Cameras was headaches. The K-3 I owned at one time would either loose it's loop, scratch the film or both. The Kinor SX 2 was actually a very solid camera but next to impossible to find anyone to work on it in the US when it broke down ( except for one camera repair company who where a bit to shady for my taste). However, I have heard some positive things about the Kiev-16.

[Esoteric]

Thanks SK360. That's really helpful - and interesting.

[Esoteric]

With grateful thanks to everyone who has helped to point me in the right direction with regard to choosing suitable 16mm equipment, I am about ready to take the plunge and try out this format.

However, just before doing so, and with the news that Fuji are continuing with Single 8 (which I seriously considered switching to earlier) I should like to get the Forum's opinion which, out of Standard 8; Super 8; Single 8; or 16mm I should finally settle on.

I currently shoot Standard 8 and Super 8, using Cinevia cartridges for Super 8, as they seem to be the only ones to work satisfactorily in my Bauer cameras.

Thanks for your opinions in advance.