Super 16mm

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hmm
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Post by hmm »

ericMartinJarvies wrote:hmm,
rebal, or the kodak 14n, those particular cameras can be controlled via software on your host computer, and these software applications offer awesome color correction features,
a potential market for you would br for those who do not have a transfer house in their local area, and and do not have previous relations with a lab/colorist.
perhaps the new filmmakers market would be your best bet
another consideration would be the ultra 16 market, very small market, but a market none the less if that is what you are looking for.
if you offered direct to disk transfers
but alas, the financial realities of the market come into play
will not trust their footage to someone and some device that is not a BUZZ word or catch phrase in the industry(rank, spirit, etc.).
if you really want some business, go and talk with local government and private archeival agencies in your area that have a shit ton of 8mm and 16mm film sitting on the shelfs that need to be transferred
so clearly everyone has a differant angle on this subject, hopefully it provides you with a good outlook on the matter,
best of luck to you :)
hi emj,
your comments are very appreciated. there is hope for me, i have to believe, or i won't get up tomorrow. i'm hoping for niches, the very ones you mention, which i've been told by others too, not mainstream, so, your thoughts are actually encouraging me to not give up quite yet.
i'm not expecting to get rich, just survive, and have fun.
gov't archives sounds very intriguing possibility which i've heard before too.

you say 'software applications for colour corrections' - can you say which ones ?
i believe i could do ultra16, hadn't considered that.
direct to disk DV - what format would 'they' want ?

this feedback i'm getting is turning out to be good news after all,
thank you emj - et al.
steve h.
nasq
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Post by nasq »

Well, as a student I have a free access to super16 cam + prime lenses + videotap, etc. I also have free access to many lights, etc.

The costs? Film, processing and telecine. Short ends/recans aren't too expensive, processing is something but then there's telecine. I'd say it's one of the most expensive services on the _whole_ budget (don't forget gear and labor is free for me).

I'd certainly see some market in cheap s16mm transfers. I think the best format to deliver small transfers would be direct files on dvd, or if the "transfer-house" had fast internet, I could directly download the stills from their server. That would make lot of sense, it would be fast and it would be cheap. No medias involved.

What I would want is rawest possible frames, maybe only inverted to positive. That way, I could color correct my material the way I want it to look, which is impossible without physically sitting with the colorist. It would also be a snap to transfer.

But I'd say minidv isn't going to cut it with workprinter, you'd need a better format for super16. Of course super16 projects are more quality-demanding than super8... And more professional.
hmm
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Post by hmm »

Nigel wrote:Scot--You are spot on!! If anyone thinks that they can compete with Cinesite, Thomson/Grass Valley or Sony by Frankensteining something together in their basement they are fools.
Good Luck
I never thought that.

I am searching for niches totally unrelated to what you guys do.
steve h.
hmm
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Post by hmm »

nasq wrote:Well, as a student
I'd certainly see some market in cheap s16mm transfers.
hi nasq,

ah - finally, a member of a niche market i've been looking for.

i appreciate your encouraging comments, thank you.

steve h.
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Post by christoph »

nasq wrote:Well, as a student I have a free access to super16 cam + prime lenses + videotap, etc. I also have free access to many lights, etc.

The costs? Film, processing and telecine. Short ends/recans aren't too expensive, processing is something but then there's telecine. I'd say it's one of the most expensive services on the _whole_ budget (don't forget gear and labor is free for me).

I'd certainly see some market in cheap s16mm transfers.
nasq, i'm in the same boat as you are.. but really a 15min short shot on super16 still costs between 5000-10000 EUR.... and *a lot* free work by a lot of ppl. would you really send off your camera negative for a workprinter transfer to save maybe 500 EUR? i mean this thing runs through a projector!.. and you know how sensible negatives are to scratches. also, given the fact that you're short turns out well and you need a release print, how are you gonna cut your negative?

i'm all for making cheap film, but the camera negative is one of the most precious things you have... i wouldnt even consider shipping them to another place, not even by fedex and highly insured (well, at least not if it's a good film which unfortunately is rarely the case ;)

++ christoph ++
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S16 WP risks factor extremely minimal

Post by hmm »

christoph wrote:
nasq wrote: I'd certainly see some market in cheap s16mm transfers.
i mean this thing runs through a projector!.. and you know how sensible negatives are to scratches.
++ christoph ++
steve says - well guys i most certainly can understand that sentiment.
i don't expect anyone in your situation to change their minds about it but i can say i thought of that too. the local who modified my WP is http://www.cineasst.com with several decades in the film business all gauges, who claims to have been one of the first to come out with one of the first 16-to-S16 conversion kits. pierre carreau's personal assurance, and i asked if i can quote him, is that the risks of scratches from my machine are extremely minimal, and that it will do the job. he said though that i must tell people there is a minimal risk, so, i do that. he said it's best for films that are not of such a critical nature as you guys do, but he also said if it did start causing problems, he could modify the rollers. so far, albeit only a couple done so far, there's no sign of any damage problems to films.

if there was any significant risk, i would not even be here asking these questions.

steve h.
nasq
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Post by nasq »

christoph wrote: nasq, i'm in the same boat as you are.. but really a 15min short shot on super16 still costs between 5000-10000 EUR....
And that's cheap huh? I'd have to say it all of course depends on the nature of the film, but I would rarely need such a budget for 15min short @ super16.

But you are right, if I was making a super16 short, I could propably dig up the money for proper telecine. On the other hand, I like taking risks, also in film making.
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Post by christoph »

nasq wrote:
christoph wrote: nasq, i'm in the same boat as you are.. but really a 15min short shot on super16 still costs between 5000-10000 EUR....
And that's cheap huh? I'd have to say it all of course depends on the nature of the film, but I would rarely need such a budget for 15min short @ super16.
hmm... have you ever tried?

1500meter film (1:8 shooting ratio) on student price: 1000 EUR
processing, prep and telecine on student price: 1500 EUR
15min sound negative on student price: 1000 EUR
15min Blowup on student price: 1200 EUR
food for 10-15ppl for 7 days: 1000 EUR (man, these ppl work for free ;)

this is 5700 EUR without any gas, telephone, location rent, set design, DAT tapes etc... no negative cut... no rental cost... oh, without tax too.

i'd be very curious how you want to manage to shoot a 15min short under 5000EUR.. maybe stuff is cheaper in finnland?

++ christoph ++
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Post by mattias »

i agree with christoph, although if you shoot black and white or short ends and go for a video master it can be cheaper. i made an 8 minute one for around $1000 once. the short i'm working on now has a $25,000 budget not including salaries or release print, but including rental of camera and lights.

/matt
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Post by ericMartinJarvies »

instead of dealing with existing markets that are pretty much covered, consider NEW markets and NEW ways to get the job done. as far as i am concerned, originating on film is about as much as i would like to do with film as possible. which is to say, once shot, developed, and transferred, i would be completely content ot never have to mess with the film again. which leads to making a digital master that is of optium quality, which can be edited on the computer and output to whatever tape format one so desires, or if the film is successful and warrants release, print those digital intermediats back to film.

people seem to think that one needs a heavy duty system to deal with digital intermediate files that are 1k, hd, 2k, 4k, etc. in size/res/quality, but that is NOT the case. instead, one simply batch converts those sequencial files to lower res images, or bath convert directly into a video format of sorts(softwre tools exist for both). it is THIS file that is used for the edit, NOT the high res digital intermediates. if you initial release is going out to video, then your highest res working/edited file need only be that size, such changes like color correction, compositing, etc., need not be applied to the DI quality files. HOWEVER, if and when you lower res release has found it's place in the world and people like it and it is on the road to fruition, wherein it needs to now be master to a higher quality format, or a film print needs to be made, all one simply must do at that point is go back to your digital intermediate files, and batch convert to the applicable format, be it hd or sd, and replace the lower res file(s) that is currently in your timeline, with all of the edits in place ... you are simply swapping the lower res for the higher res, and all those edits are applied accoridngly. if you need to apply those edits to the DI itself, then so be it ... if your systme is not capable of realtime playback of HD, then obviously it will not be capable of realtime playback of DI, but who cares ... you do not need realtime to get the job done on the high res DI, you merely need to confirm the edits/mods/color corrections have taken place and all is well.

people working in the special effects industry are working on computers that are not capable of playing back in realtime DI files, much less HD(that is slowly changing now with decklink in the game). if it takes 1-6 second RAM playbacks of DI or lessor HD resolution movies, then so be it ... you'll eventually apply the edits and complete the master. and at ANY time you cna reduce the movie res that your computer is capable of playing back in realtime, and view the edits in that regard. so where there is a will there is a way. fast 15k scsi drives and a nice controller card is certainly helpful, but in the case of a indie filmmaker, not required to complete the editing.

where people need realtime, or close to realtime for high res DI files is when people are rushed to get the job done ... but for the indie filmmaker, more likely then not it is just a question of getting the job done, no matter how long it takes.

i am currently participating in a beta test program for a sequence batch convertor/processor with realtime RAM and harddrive playback options for the mac(they have the product released already on sgi and PCs). what is cool about this particular application, is that i can take my digital camera, and let is digitize 400' of film over a 24-48 hour period, unattended, and then i merely need to select the folder that contains the sequencial images, and from that point i can apply a plethra of changes to the charactoristics of those files, be it their size, format, etc. all the way to color correction/filter changes at the batch processing level, instead of frame by frame, one at a time manually. if i have a 2k movie that is a series of sequencial images, i can first start out by taking and batch converting those images to something my system is capable of playing back in realtime while opened in my fcp timeline, or playing as a mov, etc. in doing so, i can assign timecode to these files, which is to say i can either have the names of the actual files changed to represent any number of numbering methods(frame number, hour:minute:second, and so on), or leave the original names and have the software create an associate dB that represents the files as frames, etc. now then, once i have the lower res loaded in the timeline, i can proceed to make my edits, so lets assume i have removed a number of frames from various parts of the timeline, i can take and have the same done to the DI file(s) using the batch processing tools and fcp's timecode options(i have yet to do this in practice by the way). so without ever having to open the high res files, i am able to keep them current to my low res editing. again, this is just an easier way to manage the workflow then as i mentioned erlier doing it the manual way.

in any event, what this does is it makes filming and edting to a final product, which will be a dvd in all reality, much easier and all within my control. i do not need to mess with film ever again throughout the editing process until such a time tha it needs to be printed to film for release prints, at which time the actual digital intermediate files are used to print the release print, and not the original film, and no one is the wiser. the costs to print film from digital intermediate files are coming down in cost daily ... heck, on ebay last week there ws a NICE film printer selling for $15k ... just as good as the new arri printer, but certianly not as fast ... but capable none the less.

so for me, my route is to originate on film, and once digitized, place that film in its container and place it on the shelf and look at it every so often as i pass it by to sit down and work on my computer ot edit my film :) i will most likely never deal with having release prints made from my original film, becuase i will not have a need to, and i will not be spending any more money doing it the digital way ... in fact, i will be spending lss money, less time, and having less hassle all across the board.

and my short post, future new years resolution has been compromised. arg.

eric
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Post by Scotness »

ericMartinJarvies wrote:

people seem to think that one needs a heavy duty system to deal with digital intermediate files that are 1k, hd, 2k, 4k, etc. in size/res/quality, but that is NOT the case.
Can't say I really agree Eric - if the figures quoted here http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004 ... wtopic=955 are correct then you need 400 gigs for just 20 minutes of film before you even down convert - and that's just for twenty minutes! - imagine if you were doing a 90 minute feature at a 4:1 ratio that's 360 mins of film - that's 18 x 400 gigs = 7200 gigs approx.

Not impossible but heavy duty to my mind mind - even if you only have 20 minutes worth in your PC at once -- and how long would it take to capture all of this too - at the same link above I calculated something like 719 hours non stop! - and you'd probably want all of this backed up too!

Again not impossible - but do you really want to? - I'm not saying don't because it's only by doing this kind of thing that barriers get broken down - but if you're after achieving an artisitc result rather than a technical exploration you'd be better going the conventional route.

The other thing too is - is the quality through this kind of transfer good enough to project? - will it look like the film or a photo of the film? If the optics/logisitcs of the capture are somehow apparent in the final image then having that at 2k resolution will possibly be less desirable than at low resolution (because they'd be more obvious - in the bigger size on the big screen).

It all depends on what your aims are I guess - as I was saying - either an exploration or the the end result

Scot
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Post by ericMartinJarvies »

scot,

one day, hopefully soon, i will have some fun things to show you, and others on this site regarding digitizing film. no prmises and no dates ... but my desire and beleif, based on much investment into the subject, is that very soon i will have some neat things to share with the community, and hopefully be effective contributors. in fact, i beleive alot of what i have been doing in some way has contributed already, as does everyone else who posts useful information on these sites. eventually, we always get to where we want to go, even if we have been side tracked, or have diverted down an entirely differant road, wherein when we do arrive, someone else has got there and taken care of it so we do not have to. whatever the case, good things come with trial and error, and not ventured is certainly nothing gained.

also, just to clarify something ... the amount of hard drive storage space you are talking about is way out of line with reality, or realistic numbers. there are many contributing factors to this fact. things to remember, or rules of thumb, are that the larger the physical size of the sensor ... the better. dioptres provide a better overall image then do bellows or extension tubes. mega pixels cannot be trusted of defined as standard across the board of manufactures and technology types. there are thresholds between usefullness and wastefulness as it relates to uncompressed and compressed images, be they rgb, cmyk, with whatever color profile, in whatever bit depth, based on whatever size of film in it's originating condition/resolution, and on and on and on. in other words, to generalize this subject only lends to confusing it more then it already is. confusing a sensor with a processor or a signal seems to be a common problem amonst many of us figuring all of this stuff out. shit in shit out in any case, no exceptions. if the original film is shit, everything after it will be shit no matter how good the technology. 8/s8mm film and it's relationship to a 1/4" sensor, and it's relationship with a 35mm sized sensor is conditional based on how it is luminated, transported, imaged, processed, and saved. in the hundreds and thusands of possiblities to accomplish literally the same objective, the goal is to find the right combonation, for the least amount of money, effort, and time, obviously. but quality is something no one likes to compromise ... time, money, and effort are things we are more then willing to compromise way before we will consider compromising image quality ... in most cases anyways, wherein the final product is dependant on image quality.

if you take a look at my ebay activity, you will see i am purchasing a great number of various types of lenses and what have you, so that i can effectively benchmark and place real numbers and facts on real tests with real conclusions. the amount of money each of us wastes purchasing something that is all about BUZZ and little about fact, or all about popularity, and little about reality, is something i do not wish upon others who follow me in this regard, or in any regard. information ... real world, correctly tested and benchmarked information tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ... everything else is heresay and a great misinformation to sociaty.

eric
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Post by nasq »

christoph wrote: hmm... have you ever tried?

1500meter film (1:8 shooting ratio) on student price: 1000 EUR
processing, prep and telecine on student price: 1500 EUR
15min sound negative on student price: 1000 EUR
15min Blowup on student price: 1200 EUR
food for 10-15ppl for 7 days: 1000 EUR (man, these ppl work for free ;)

++ christoph ++
I've made many shorts, music videos, etc. and usually on my own expense. I usually manage to shoot with 1:3 or maximum 1:4 shooting ratio when shooting film. At that ratio I don't even have to compromise (of course one must compromise in film making, but you know what I mean). And I've never done blowups, mostly video-finish stuff. Of course screening copies on film would be nice, but almost all festivals accept videos nowadays as well.

I've never paid anything for locations, nor electricity. I don't think the stuff is cheaper in Finland, but you can do a lot when you don't have the money. For example, I've got an hour worth of 16mm film, snip-tested to be prime. Paid 100 EUR for the whole lot. I'd say it all depends how much risks you are willing to take. Of course it could end to catastrophy, but hey it's only one possibility ;)

One thing that I agree, you must supply food for people who work for free. I've been in too many productions, that don't have catering.
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Post by mattias »

nasq wrote:almost all festivals accept videos nowadays as well.
while that is true it's not that simple. first it's usually much easier to get in if you have a film print, and second you'll get screened at better venues. if you can't afford it, fair enough, but if you feel you have no use for a print i'd think again...

/matt
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