K40 processing

[studiocarter]

Regular 8mm film fits on 110 reels. Metal ones hold 3 feet while the Jobo plastic ones hold 6 feet. That means it only takes 4 plastic reels for an entire roll of 25 feet.
I learned a lot using R8 film shot in short pieces and developed in little tanks. Time, temp., agitation, strength of chems., which chems to use, and so on are a lot to deal with.
You get so that you can work in the dark, either in a changing bag or in a dark room and do about anything. Lots of practice in the light is needed first.
Now, I just want to shoot film. Pro labs can do my processing. I'm for shooting film on an ongoing basis, regular like. So far, two S8 carts have been sent off, one to Dwayne's and one to Fair Lawn. Three R8 spools will be delivered today, got the pink notice yesterday and I taped it to the door. There are two more 100 foot spools of R8 waiting for a bushing that may come this week. And, there are two rolls of 16mm Plus-x, one sound and one silent. That is a lot to do. Shoot three formats. No time to process.
Look at my lab pages:
http://www.16mmoviemaking.com/lab.htm
If I used all that stuff, and a lot more, I'd never shoot film.
Sure, you can be creative in the lab, but my brain creates in images, sounds, movements that I want to put onto film.

Michael Carter

[monobath]

It's good to know that the Jobo 110 reels will work, but I'd hate to have to cut a 50 foot roll of Super 8 film into 8 pieces in order to process it! It'll be tedious enough to have to process a single uncut roll at a time in the Jobo with my homemade film holder.

Even though it's somewhat time consuming, home processing can be cheaper and faster than mail-order lab processing, especially if you already have a fully equipped darkroom and don't mind buying bulk chemicals and mixing your solutions from scratch. Mainly, though, the ability to exercise control over the image characteristics is what appeals to me the most.

[studiocarter]

Uh, the 110 reels work only with regular 8mm film which is 16mm wide before slitting. Super 8 is already slit, and like you say twice as long.
There is a great deal that may be done creatively with film in your own lab. All those different chemicals effect film differently. Grain may be greatly enhansed or eliminated. Commercial labe are sort of middle of the road as far as what may be done.
Making your own release prints from AB rolls is the most interesting thing that may be done. How many filmakers sell prints of their films nowadays?

[monobath]

Michael, you said

Making your own release prints from AB rolls is the most interesting thing that may be done.

That sounds interesting. What is an AB roll, and how does one make a release print? Is that a negative to positive, or positive to interneg to positive process? Is there a way to go from positive to positive (i.e., reversal film direct to reversal copy)? Is it a contact printing process or does it entail refilming a projected image?

[studiocarter]

Yes to all of the processes except the rephotographing (opticals for fades etc are done that way) mostly contact prints.
A&B are two films holding alternating shots with black leader between for spacers. No splices show. A hot splicer is used that splices ON the frame line and the overlap is in the black area of the leader. Contact prints are made of both films to make one copy. Film is run through the printer twice.
S8 could be blown up to 16 for full services on film then back down for a copy; so could r8 and that may be the only way to archive R8 properly.
16mm is so cool that way because it is totally supported and you can still do everything FILM on that format most easily.

[monobath]

Michael, thank you. I think it's over my head at this point and I'm not certain I really understand. In fact, I may be hopelessly lost. Creating an AB rolls sounds like it would be tedious, especially if you have to splice black leader between each frame of each film, and I still don't understand why you'd want to do such a thing.

Developing a method of producing a straight contact print from negative stock onto reversal film in the same guage seems fairly straightforward. It would be a one step process for producing release prints from an edited negative original. All you'd need would be a way to feed two films, emulsion to emulsion, from one pair of reels to another pair, through a pressure plate capable of providing accurate registration of both films, and a light source to expose through the negative stock onto the reversal stock. I'm not sure how to go about building one, but a competent machinest probably would.

Building a machine to accomplish a blowup from 8mm to 16mm would be more difficult. That would be an enlarger-like setup, vastly more complex than a contact print. Hmmm, now I'm dreaming....

[studiocarter]

It is splicing film that causes the problems. They show. If you wet splice the film overlaps and you loose some of a frame; it shows when it passed by on screen. If you dry splice then the tape makes the frames a little different at best and hideous at worst with air bubbles, wrinkles, hairs and dirt. Dry splices may be done well, but it takes practice.
The film between splices, hopefully, are different shots. They are different angles, they show objects at different sizes.
The object of editing with a&b rolls is to eliminate the splices from showing. Other than painting one frame black, shots are alternated, putting black leader between all the odd numbered shots, putting black leader between even numbered shots. When a contact print is made, using both rolls, no splices show on the 'release' print. Unfortunately, the splicer used to make such rolls is expensive on the web. They are there for sale, I checked, search on hot splicer. The hot part is not needed.

My web shows a printer that is able to print 16mm film, the optical sound track for 16mm film, or regular 8mm film. There was a S8 one for sale but I didn't get it. This one allows prints to be made from slit regular 8mm film or the double wide 16mm film. Contact prints may be made from UNSLIT Regular 8mm film, then slit after processing. But then, splices would show, or four pictures at a time on screen.
http://www.16mmoviemaking.com/printer.htm
I got this one from a medical photographer's wife who used to teach film making at the local Art Institute. My method of learning and teaching invloves using equipment.

A movie projector may be adapted to make contact prints. One isolates the film from the lanp. Two reels of film are rolled up together on one reel, sandwiched face to face, before hand. One is the raw unexposed film and the other is the film to be copied. You can try doing this with any two reels of film in a projector. It works. That is, the claw is long enough and the gate flexable enough to allow it. All that is needed is to shield the film from the excess light. A variable resistor and or a low wattage lamp help a lot. I have old magazines with plans for how to do it, how it was done. Such tinkering was common long ago.

[monobath]

Thank you very much for that detailed explanation, Michael. I understand it now. The A&B roll has black leader on each roll that is exactly opposite a scene on the other roll, and this allows for "seamless" printing by printing twice, once from each of the A or B rolls, onto the same contact film.

If you print the A roll first, then the black leader on that roll protectes the contact print film from exposure in the segments reserved for the B roll. Then when you print the B roll, the black leader on it protects the already exposed sections from the A roll from double exposure.

The picture of the contact printer you posted is pretty much what I'd envisioned. I wonder if there were any ever made for Super 8? I'd love to have one.

Finally, I have to apologize for hijacking this topic. It was originally about Kodachrome 40. I know that I should have started a new one, but the conversation just sort of "developed" in the way that it did.

Is the Maier-Hancock model 816 Portable Hot Splicer for 16mm and 8mm a good hot splicer? Will it do Super 8, or only regular 8? I see that they sometimes go for under $50 on Ebay.

[studiocarter]

Yes, that is correct, you have it now.

The hot splicer often sells for much much more than that. It does not do Super 8mm film only 16 and r8.

Chambless Cine had a Super 8mm printer like that for sale in their catalog.

Kodak sent me a "Customer Mailer Order Form" with which I may order USA mailers. I sent them one of the European ones when they said they would process it 'anyway' as a service. Remember, I was told they would send it back to me not processed. Well, this form allows me to get the proper mailers to use in the US. They are PK 59 #50016 at ($9.13 each) in a packet of 5 costing $45.65 plus tax (and shipping?) most likely.

Kodak doesn't do e-mail so I scanned it and hosted it; Kodak does do FAX, but, that technology has passed me by. (I told them that FAX was old fashioned and that they should get with e-mail)

http://www.16mmoviemaking.com/Form.jpg