Beta or Mini DV

coles4038 · Post by **coles4038** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 7:05 am

Hi,

Getting ready for a shoot here and I wanted to ask what is the best way to do this. I was going to shoot the S8 and have it transferred to Beta in Telecine then have a Mini DV dub made. That way I have a real master reel.

I just had a job done where 1" video was transferred to Mini DV and it was fantastic.

It seems easy enough to have a Mini DV done straightaway. I don't want to regret it since the footage is important. Has anyone done it both ways?

Cheers.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:53 am

If your goal is to end up on DV, then telecine'ing straight to DV is going to prove to be the best way to go. Going to intermediate formats, whether Beta or 1", is only going to introduce degradation to the image.

Post by **Cheezy** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:37 am

Well, if it's only for personal purposes, I'd go miniDV, but if you intend to do some professional stuff with your footage, I'd go through Digital Betacam first, which is uncompressed (but way more expensive, too) You have to understand that miniDV has an average compression ratio of 5:1, resulting in signal levels (4:1:1 encoding) that are usually insufficient for SFX and/or color correction. If your on a tight budget, then go BetaSP or DVCPro.

Post by **crimsonson** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:29 pm

Go DV if budget is a consideration.

DigBeta is not uncompressed, its 2:1 at 4:2:2 color space.
DV is 5:1 at 4:1:1.
DV is actually slightly better, or at least equal to Beta. People confuses the capability of DV editings system to a component editing system for BetaSP. You must differentiate between the techincal specs of the tape format (DV vs Beta) and the technical capabilities of the NLE (DV 5:1 vs whatever)

I agree if you are finishing in DV, start DV.

Post by **Cheezy** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:50 pm

Oh yeah, you're right about the 2:1 compression of DigiBeta. Sorry about my mistake. I heard recently that even HDCam is compressed and the signal is actually stripped down to a DigiBeta stream on the tape.

Post by **crimsonson** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 5:02 am

Sony's HD is compressed. I dont remember the ratio [I think its 9:1] but the color is 3:1:1. Pana's Varicam is 4:2:2. But ofcourse the compression is different and they start of as 10 bit. DV is only 8 bit. That 2 bit is a HUGE difference.
There is the VIPER imaging system from Thompson. It does 4:4:4, but since there is no economical tape format for it to be recorded, HD is really the only other option.

Post by **vidwerk** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 5:57 am

I personally get all my super 8 and 16mm footage transfered on to Beta SP. I then transfer it from my Beta masters to miniDV with the same timecode, so that I can now do my offline editing at home using firewire and online(hi-res) elsewhere on an Xpress or Symphony. Beta SP is analog however, but it's a fully uncompressed source and has more lines of resolution than miniDV. I also find miniDV tapes to be way too fragile while Beta SP's are very robust. Digi-Beta is very good way to go, but the cost for me is too much. Besides, Beta SP decks are more common to come across that Digi-Beta decks.

Simon.

Post by **Cheezy** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:07 am

Yeah, the big problem with miniDV is that reading and/or writing them too often can generate digital dropouts. The tape is really fragile. Beta SP can be a good choice provided the recorder that is used is really clean and the tape is new.

Post by **mattias** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:17 am

vidwerk wrote:Beta SP is analog however, but it's a fully uncompressed source

not entirely true. it uses analog compression which produces its own artifacts.

and has more lines of resolution than miniDV.

not true. most beta cameras have higher resolution than most dv ones, but it's actually the other way around for the format.

I also find miniDV tapes to be way too fragile while Beta SP's are very robust.

*very* true. this one alone is reason enough to transfer to beta first.

/matt

Post by **crimsonson** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 4:22 pm

"Beta SP is analog however, but it's a fully uncompressed source"

Compression is really a digital term in this case. In the analog world, bandwidth is the comparitive term. In the end and simplicity's sake - they are about even.

"and has more lines of resolution than miniDV."

DV comes out slighlty more actually.

DV are actually hold better where dropouts are concerned. Beta SP has more but less severe. DV is considerably less but is more severe. So choose your poison. If drop out really concerns you then choose DVCam or better yet DVC Pro. Though only slightly larger than standard DV, drops is really not an issue, especially with DVC Pro.

Post by **Cheezy** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:06 pm

I've been using DVCPro for about five years now, on an every-day basis and never had dropouts unless the camera had a problem or the VTR's heads were almost dead ! :lol:
MiniDV is another story. I often ran into serious trouble when recording over an already recorded tape. And whenever I have to print some video or home-rendered video effects on miniDV, I always secure the footage by recording it twice on the tape, just in case... Sometimes it's just a small square digital drop but it can ruin your most beautiful shots.

Post by **crimsonson** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 1:49 am

Well DVC Pro also uses a different tape - Metal Particle / MP.
This is the the widely accepted tape format for broadcast [HD, BetaSP, DigiBeta, etc], thus much more robust.

DVCam and DV uses Metal evaporated. Its good, but not as good as MP and cost less.

Post by **jessh** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 7:06 am

crimsonson wrote:Well DVC Pro also uses a different tape - Metal Particle / MP.
This is the the widely accepted tape format for broadcast [HD, BetaSP, DigiBeta, etc], thus much more robust.

DVCam and DV uses Metal evaporated. Its good, but not as good as MP and cost less.

You have your types of tape mixed up, MP is the lower quality, If I remember correcctly they are both actually Metal Particle, but the evaporated use a better method for putting the particles on the tape. DVCam tapes as well as the higher end Sony DV tapes are all ME, and the tapes are all interchangable so you can use ME tapes with regular DV, and if you want minimal dropouts without changing formats it is the way to go(it wont totally get rid of them, but should help). The same goes for analog formats such as Hi8 or BetaSP.

~Jess

Post by **Cheezy** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 9:34 am

But beware: if you use a minidv tape and you record dvcam on it, you lose about 40% of the tape's original length. DVcam tape recorders run faster than miniDV and a 60' dvcam tape is actually physically longer than a 60' minidv tape. Of course, if you use a dvcam tape to record miniDV on it, you got a longer tape !

But I think we are derivating from the original post now... 8O

Post by **crimsonson** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:19 pm

I am not mixing it.
ME is for DV/DVCam and MP is for DVC Pro. MP is more receptive to the signal.

Yes you can physically use the tapes in the other but DON'T. Mixing tape formats will mix the lubrication. This is one of the top reasons for clogs and dropout.
It is standard practice to stay with one tape brand and model as much as humanly possible.