DIY Telecine camera upgrade options

[Chris-B]

I'm looking at upgrading my machine vision camera and was looking for some recommendations.
I'm currently using a Sony DFW SX900 that I picked up cheap on ebay and could do with something better and faster.

My list of criteria are -
USB3
10bit colour (uncompressed)
Good dynamic range and low noise
1920 x 1080 min. Resolution
Trigger
Some kind or ready to use software interface
& I've already go a good fast ssd set up for capture to Windows PC.

Hopefully I can get a camera for around £800 UK (that's about $1200 US or €1100).
I could up this if needed to but that's what I aiming for.

I already have working 8 and 16mm diy telecine set ups that are working well I just wanted to upgrade the camera as I have a load of mixed 16mm to transfer (neg, poss, b&w, colour... hours and hours worth of footage) and I wanted to make it as easy a possible.

So, 10 bit should give my plenty of room for gamma and colour correction.
This coupled with a good dynamic range should mean I can just do one light transfers and balance/correct the rest in post to get good results.

At the moment I'm using the Sony DFW-SX900 with the unibrain I-fire application, which is very simple to use to capture numbered still fame sequences.

Any thoughts would be most welcome.
Chris.

PS.
I was also looking to the possibility of using a blackmagic pocket camera (with c-mount adaptor) via the 10bit hdmi out to a blackmagic intensity usb3. But I need to look into this further to see if the back magic frame grab is also 10bit, speed it will work at... etc.
I think this way maybe going backwards as I will have to use a modified mouse set up rather than a trigger on a machine vision camera.

[JeremyC]

Look at the Basler range of machine vision cameras, they might have something close.

[Chris-B]

Thanks Jeremy.

I think I have it narrowed down to the cameras with the imx174 sensor.
Looks like basler, point grey and the imaging source all do them.
I.S. seems to be cheapest but they are not getting them in until mid 2015.

So I'm looking at the point grey model.
http://www.ptgrey.com/grasshopper3-23-m ... ony-imx174
Not sure what the point grey software is like to use.
Have you used the basler software? What's it like?

Cheers,
Chris.

[RCBasher]

I have tested the PGR version with the IMX174. It is the only CMOS global shutter sensor I've tested so far which matches the image quality of the ICX674 CCD camera I have. On paper it should have around 10dB better dynamic range but I didn't find this in side by side tests. There was some funny clamping going on at black level which artificially hid low level noise, but a couple of steps up with the brightness control fixed this. However, at half the price of the CCD camera it is certainly one to seriously consider. Less vertical pixel count than the ICX674, but depending on which film format you are scanning this is of little or no consequence.

Not tested the Basler but hope to soon test the Toshiba Teli BU238MC, which costs around 10% more than the PGR but would be worth it if they squeezed out that extra 10dB.

I would not hold my breath waiting for the IS model. I contacted them last year when they first announced it and from their answers to a couple of basic questions I didn't get any sense of comfort that it would not be yet another cheap but limited model in their range. May be pleasantly surprised though, only time will tell.

Most vendors supply an SDK if you are up for writing your own capture application and they also usually have a supplied application which enables to run and test the camera. Be aware though that there can be some "gotchas" with these test apps. For example, PGR offer FlyCap2 but their de-Bayer function only works at 8bit. Which reminds me, if you go with the PGR model you will need to dive into the settings to select Mode 7 to get 12bit output, something which is not immediately obvious.

For film scanning, it is highly recommended to apply gamma while still in 12bit mode, something not often possible with the supplied applications and the in-camera gamma control should be left well alone as it is only an approximation and gives rather bad results - see this PGR KB http://www.ptgrey.com/KB/10282 which they wrote from the test report I sent to them after discovering this issue!

In the end I wrote my own application, using ActiveDcam (Firewire) and ActiveUSB (USB 3) which is integrated with my RGB lighting system. Balanced lighting is as equally important as the camera choice if you are to get the best out of the capture.

Hope the above helps.
Frank

[joshgladstone]

I use a Sony XCD-U100CR in my 16 and super 8 setups, and that gives me 1600x1200 pixels. I also got mine for cheap on ebay. When I was scanning 4x3, it was perfectly fine, since the 1200 pixel vertical resolution gave me more than enough information. However, I've since widened out my 16mm gate to super16, so not even being able to get HD quality has me looking into upgrading my camera.

I'm on osx, and have everything working with pydc1394 and opencv. So ideally I'd like to stay with dcam, but I'm not ruling out working with something else, even if I have to rewrite the capture portion of my software.

So my question is, does anybody have any experience with usb microscope cameras?

I was looking at some of them, and they seem to be exceedingly reasonably priced for their resolutions, and they claim to be TWAIN compliant. I mean, that's a standard, right? So theoretically, they could be made to work. However, the little bit I can find out about any of them is that they're pretty much unsupported, and the software they do use is proprietary and not very good, especially on osx. Which leads me to think that they are no so standards compliant, and would probably be impossible to work with. So has anyone looked into or used cameras like these?

http://www.amazon.com/Summit-SK2-14X-Co ... B00NFQI080
http://www.amazon.com/AmScope-Microscop ... B00C2JGOC0
http://www.amazon.com/C-MOUNT-DIGITAL-M ... 00IQR0TJG/

[Chris-B]

It does help a lot, thank you very much Frank.

It's great to hear from someone who has actually used this camera.
It’s a shame the test apps debayer function only works in 8bit. Do you recall if the supplied app allows capture of numbered images sequences via the trigger (I assmue it does, but never assume right?) in RAW?
I guess this would mean that I could get around the debayer issue by converting the RAW image sequence in a different piece of software. I assume the debayer is not done on camera, but in the software.

Are there any other gotchas that you noticed using the supplied apps/SDK that you can think of? After you mentioned using Mode 7 for 12bit I did see some vague reference to it in one of the marketing documents but may not have put 2&2 together, so thanks for the heads up.

Also I noticed on one of your other posts that you reference the Point Grey GrassHopper 3 with IMX174 and advised to wait for the firmware to be sorted, what were the issues there, do you know if they have been sorted?

Sorry to bombard you with so many questions.

I have found your posts and cine2digits site very interesting and informative. Lots of good advice in there. It’s an amazing lighting set up you have devised for your telecine device. Did you get to a point were you could offer your packages based on activeUSB3?

Thanks again for your help,
Chris.

[JeremyC]

Very interesting ost Frank and thanks for the link to the pointgrey article.

[RCBasher]

It’s a shame the test apps debayer function only works in 8bit. Do you recall if the supplied app allows capture of numbered images sequences via the trigger (I assmue it does, but never assume right?) in RAW?

I guess this would mean that I could get around the debayer issue by converting the RAW image sequence in a different piece of software. I assume the debayer is not done on camera, but in the software.

I do not think there is the ability to save to a sequence of still frames.

Are there any other gotchas that you noticed using the supplied apps/SDK that you can think of?

Not off-hand, but I have not wasted much time with the PGR test app as I have my own!

Also I noticed on one of your other posts that you reference the Point Grey GrassHopper 3 with IMX174 and advised to wait for the firmware to be sorted, what were the issues there, do you know if they have been sorted?

There are still minor issues, but nothing that can't be worked around or ignored.

Did you get to a point were you could offer your packages based on activeUSB3?

Yes, I can offer USB3 or DCam support.

Frank

[aj]

I use a Sony XCD-U100CR in my 16 and super 8 setups, and that gives me 1600x1200 pixels. I also got mine for cheap on ebay. When I was scanning 4x3, it was perfectly fine, since the 1200 pixel vertical resolution gave me more than enough information. However, I've since widened out my 16mm gate to super16, so not even being able to get HD quality has me looking into upgrading my camera.

I'm on osx, and have everything working with pydc1394 and opencv. So ideally I'd like to stay with dcam, but I'm not ruling out working with something else, even if I have to rewrite the capture portion of my software.

So my question is, does anybody have any experience with usb microscope cameras?

I was looking at some of them, and they seem to be exceedingly reasonably priced for their resolutions, and they claim to be TWAIN compliant. I mean, that's a standard, right? So theoretically, they could be made to work. However, the little bit I can find out about any of them is that they're pretty much unsupported, and the software they do use is proprietary and not very good, especially on osx. Which leads me to think that they are no so standards compliant, and would probably be impossible to work with. So has anyone looked into or used cameras like these?

http://www.amazon.com/Summit-SK2-14X-Co ... B00NFQI080
http://www.amazon.com/AmScope-Microscop ... B00C2JGOC0
http://www.amazon.com/C-MOUNT-DIGITAL-M ... 00IQR0TJG/

Important is that the USB can transfer fast enough.
For framecapture there must be a way to trigger from the film-transporting-machine (projector)
and that the frames can be stored sequentail and numbered. Or possibly directly in a mpeg stream.

[joshgladstone]

My setup uses a stepper motor that stops at each frame, so exposure time can be as long as I want. So transfer rates are not a huge issue for me. And I capture directly to my computer, so assuming these USB cameras actually are TWAIN compliant, I should be able to figure something out with that. But I'm not sure they actually are, so my question is really does anyone have any experience specifically with cameras like these. And if you were able to get images off them, what was the quality like? Are these camera's CMOS chips high quality?

It'd be really amazing to get a 4k capture camera for a fraction of the price of an equivalent firewire camera.

[mrdatsun]

Does anyone have any opinion on the merits of using a CCD or CMOS sensor-based camera in a DIY setup?

[Simon Lucas]

Does anyone have any opinion on the relative merits of CCD and CMOS sensor-based cameras in DIY scanning?

[Ystabo]

I have used DFK 31BU03 for a few years now. The camera was trigged with 5 volt puls from the projector.
Now i have bought a point grey grasshopper camera. But i do not understand how to trigger this camera.
Which GPI0 should i use and how many volts.
Have asked point grey but they have not get responded.
I do not no if this is the right place to ask this. But i try.

Mats Stahl. Ystad Sweden

[RCBasher]

I have used DFK 31BU03 for a few years now. The camera was trigged with 5 volt puls from the projector.
Now i have bought a point grey grasshopper camera. But i do not understand how to trigger this camera.
Which GPI0 should i use and how many volts.
Have asked point grey but they have not get responded.
I do not no if this is the right place to ask this. But i try.

Mats Stahl. Ystad Sweden

Download the Technical Reference manual from the Point Grey website. Go to your model and select documents. You may have to create a login first, but that is no problem and you will need it in the future anyway for firmware updates, etc.

There are two main ways to trigger the Grasshopper:
1) via the optical isolating input on pin 1 (black wire if using Point Grey I/o cable), use pin 6 (blue) for the ground.
2) via direct input on pin 3 (red) with 5 (brown) for ground.

The default external trigger is the optically isolated input (option 1 above) and I would recommend to use this to limit the chances of frying the camera if you do something bad. In either case, a 5V level pulse will work just fine, so you should be able to use the same as you did for the DFK.

While I'm posting, I can provide an update on camera choices:
The IMX249 sensor in the Point Grey Blackfly performs as equally well as the IMX174 apart from a slower frame rate, but still fast enough at around 30fps in full bit depth and external trigger.
Have also just tested the second generation Sony Pregius sensor, IMX252 in a GS3-U3-32S4C and can say it is rather good! In spite of the reduced pixel size they have somehow managed to retain excellent dynamic range. A slower speed version of this sensor can be found in the CM3-U3-31S4C at around 400 Euro (plus taxes & shipping). The pixel format ratio (2048x1536) is better suited to most film formats than the IMX174/249 (1920x1200).

Frank

[onryo]

So these are the ones to beat for about 500USD it sounds like.

Point Grey Grasshopper3 GS3-U3-32S4C (Sony IMX252) 2048x1536
Point Grey Chameleon3 CM3-U3-31S4C (Sony IMX265) 2048x1536

It is mentioned above that they both use the same sensor? When I looked them up it seems one uses a IMX252 and the other a IMX265. Maybe I misunderstood.

Anyway to the point. I just found a "Eumig Mark M" that I am hoping is OK for rebuilding into a transfer unit. Anybody know anything about this projector?
I now need to order a digitizer for frame by frame captures. If I understand right I don't even need to slow the projector down to capture at 2048x1536 12bit unless I want to do say HDR stuff if I use good powerful lighting. Some of the film is quite dark and I would like to extrapolate as much.data out of it as I can. Is the CM3-U3-31S4C capable of doing say 20fps in 12bit mode at 2048x1536?

One more thing. I write a lot of my own programs for things I build. Are these devices using weird closed protocols?

All the best
Erik Adler