We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks better

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Will2
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

Post by Will2 »

Angus wrote:The man made some great movies, but actually hasn't got a clue what made them look so good. As anyone who saw his Star Wars prequels knows. They look *horrible*.
A friend of mine worked on the prequels. The renders for almost all the special effects were done at HD resolution; not even 2k. They were all about saving money; and time is money with rendering.

Funny thing was the special effects didn't bother me as much as the video-looking people shots. Well, that tank battle scene was pretty horrible looking. Guess they got caught up in a "new" technology. The best looking Star Wars film to me is probably the first one that was the most grainy. Guess we'll see what JJ does with his new film-centric approach.
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

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Image

The images on the right use exactly the same number of colours (or grey tones), namely 4. This reduction in colours (from the original) is called "quantisation".

But the the bottom right image has had noise added prior to quantisation. While both of the images on the right have been quantised to a palette of 4 tones, the one on the bottom right provides for a more overt sense of tonal gradation than the top right. But how is it that adding noise results in better tonal quality?

Well the reason is that noise is not just noise. Statistically (and this is important) noise is equivalent to zero. So adding noise is the same as adding zero. In other words the result of adding noise is no change at all. But only statistically (ie. globally). Locally (for any given pixel) the effect is noise (randomness). But globally the noise filter doesn't do anything at all. It doesn't matter if the noise is pseudo-random or organically random - the result is the same: no change.

Now an image (a signal, a face) is not localised in any particular pixel. The image is a statistical object - distributed throughout all of the pixels - between every pixel and every other pixel. Accordingly the addition of noise has no affect on the image, since the noise only affects the pixels (the local information). It does not affect the image. At any given location (ie. at a pixel) the noise will have a random affect (resulting in any value) but globally (statistically) the noise filter is zero (has zero affect). Globally, for every pixel that is darker by some random amount, another is lighter by an equal but opposite amount. So globally these effects cancel each other out.

An image and the zero side of the noise addition, occupy the same domain - a statistical space, whereas the 4 colour filter occupies local space (the pixels). If the random aspect of the noise filter affects only the pixels, and not the image, it can be used to effectively interrupt the localised effect of the 4 colour process, while having no affect on the image. This affords the image a greater opportunity to punch through the barrier otherwise introduced by the 4 colour effect. The 4 colour effect is effectively turned to junk (noise) allowing the image (signal) to become consequently more visible.

The way in which film is constructed provides a ready-made inbuilt noise adder. During transfer to digital - the affect of such is to turn localised information (where quantisation occurs) into noise, while having no affect on the image. And insofar as this is done at the source (during exposure), rather than in post, the image is far better sustained. It is why adding noise in post is not as effective as adding noise at the source (in the way film is manufactured). It is why Peter Jackson's claims that you can add noise (or grain) in post falls down. The noise is not what we are appreciating (not normally). It is the image. But if the image is not there to begin with, the addition of noise won't help to recover it. The noise operates on localised information in order to unblock any image (global information) that might be lurking. But if the image is not there in the first place, no amount of unblocking will find it again. That said, there is still an image in the digital domain and one that the addition of some noise can unblock. Just not as effectively as doing so at the source.

This same thing also works in film projection as well. The cells on our retinas are localised sensors. The film interrupts any quantisation effects our eyes might contribute to a depreciation of the image. Our eyes have already done a lot of the work already - randomly arranged cells, random movement of the eyes. But our eyes are not there during film exposure, so the film has to do similar work. Scramble localisations before they infiltrate and subdue the image.

So in short adding noise does not affect the image. It only affects the quantisation which would otherwise (if not turned to noise) further suppress the image.

Carl
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

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From a philosophical point of view, this relationship posed, between pixels (or grain etc) on the one hand, and the image on the other, reverses the logic of that which has tended to inform the digital image and it's precendents.

In computed images (which precedes digital photography and paves the way for such) the philosophical framework is that of an image as a function of the pixels, ie. that images are made from or composed of pixels (or composed of silver particles for that matter). In the same way one might say that a painting is composed of paint, or a house is composed of bricks. Or a body is composed of atoms. The large as an arrangement of the small. The small as fundamental and the large as little more than an effect of such: a particular composition of which any other composition might be equally possible given the fundamental components (pixels, paint, bricks, atoms, etc) and the state of the universe.

Reversing this framework involves treating the large as fundamental and the small as a function of the large. So we would say, within such a framework, that paint is a function of paintings, bricks are a function of houses, atoms are a function of bodies, and pixels are a function of images (etc).

In this there might be considered a strange sense in which effects are preceding their causes, but it's not really the case at all. For example, we can conceive the origin and evolution of paint to be found in questions regarding how to create a painting. Answer: paint. For what purpose would be the creation of paint without paintings? And the origin of bricks can be understood as an answer (amongst others) to the question of how a house might be constructed. And so on. The chronological order involved in the creation of a particular work can be treated as misleading. Certainly one seems to begin with a blank canvas and tubes of paint, from which appears to follow the work. But without that which will be the work, one will remain stuck with a blank canvas and tubes of paint. There is a sense in which a work can be understood as already there (somewhere) before it's means. Even if we do not know, at the time, what that work will be. In this framework a work is not an effect as such, but a cause. Or if we retain the term "effect" (for historical purposes) we can just dispense with the concept of causes. The reality of a work is to be found in what is made visible rather than the supposed means. Of course, in the best works, the means is very much a part of what is being made visible. It is not hidden away. It is a part of the work. Or even the main focus. But in any case the work is in what it makes visible (if only the potentially so). The visible (audible etc) constitutes the work. The image constitutes the work. If only because it is simply impossible to express the invisible without violating claims of invisibility. Indeed one might say there is simply no such thing as the invisible. Even the myth of such is visible.

Photography, of the photochemical variety, emerges within a social environment very much philosophically awake to this idea of an equation between reality and image. Photography taps right into it. It will be another hundred years before the pendulum swings back the other way and the painting model (which informs the digital image) re-asserts itself. The image as illusion. The image as inconceivable as anything but an illusion, and the digital image as some sort of proof. So much so that even photography of the photochemical variety becomes retrospectively treated as but another illusion, if by different means. Almost as if the camera/film system were some sort of embryonic digital effects system. Not a bad idea really - if only because it's so insane. But not content with treating photography as if it were the same thing as painting, reality itself becomes positioned as an illusion. The universe at large as some sort of hallucination. For if images and reality are to be treated as the same thing then reality itself must be an illusion - because the idea of the image, as an illusion, is so completely and utterly entrenched. It becomes impossible to think of it in any other way. This idea of the universe as an illusion might be according to a modern approach - as an hallucination produced by aliens (The Matrix, Dark City) or via an older version: an illusion produced by demons (Descartes). Or at best a representation (God would not fool us - Descartes). Or simply without any reason at all, which might be the better expression of this equation.

But it is against this equation, between image and illusion, that the alternative framework is posed. In whatever way suits the time.

Carl
Last edited by carllooper on Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

Post by sciolist »

How nice (and appropriate) to see Deleuze make an appearance at the forum!
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

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sciolist wrote:How nice (and appropriate) to see Deleuze make an appearance at the forum!
Wow. It's incredible you picked up on that. Makes my day. Most of the time I just assume I'm talking to an empty room.

cheers
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

Post by S8 Booster »

carllooper wrote:
sciolist wrote:How nice (and appropriate) to see Deleuze make an appearance at the forum!
Wow. It's incredible you picked up on that. Makes my day. Most of the time I just assume I'm talking to an empty room.

cheers
Carl
Not really but maybe you rise the right questions and add the right answers to them which makes no room for further replies ;)

Case closed ;)


Shoot.....
..tnx for reminding me Michael Lehnert.... or Santo or.... cinematography.com super8 - the forum of Rednex, Wannabees and Pretenders...
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

Post by carllooper »

S8 Booster wrote:Not really but maybe you raise the right questions and add the right answers to them which makes no room for further replies ;)
Ha ha. Yes, I end up answering my own questions before anyone else gets a chance. So I'd need to think of some questions for which I don't have an answer! If, as my post implied, I was disappointed by the absence of such (in a reply).

I realise, though, I'm not actually talking to an empty room. Quite the contrary. I think what I meant to suggest (and what you are picking up on) is that the way I write assumes an empty room. Not so much as a proposition but as a formula or a technique - as a way of writing, rather than as a reflection on any particular reality as such (such as this forum). One writes as if talking to an empty room. As if there was nobody there. Its a way of elaborating something beyond the immediate context. Towards some other indeterminate context, for which a reader need not be necessary. And for which a reply is certainly not at all implied.

But the appearance of a reader (or more specifically a reply) then alters that equation. Which, despite the way such might be excluded by the writing, actually makes my day. Not sure why. It shouldn't matter at all. Given the way I write. Perhaps it's just a surprise. An inevitable one. If surprises can actually possess inevitability.

Deleuze, by the way, is a French philosopher, and it's his image I used in the discussion on noise. He wrote two books on the Cinema (amongst others on other subjects) which inform the philosophical framework touched on in that discussion. I channel him quite a lot (amongst others).

cheers
C
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

Post by marc »

NO matter how true all of this may be. It will not stop the market tide of dying film and rising film costs. We could argue that Dinosaurs were the best hunters but it did not keep them on the planet.
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

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Photochemical film is like any technology - it has it's day in the sun, and then it falls to those who appreciate it, to keep it going. Once upon a time steam trains were all the rage. The future was steam powered. And then things changed. But steam trains are still around, and they're still chuffing away every now and then, maintained by volunteers and devotees. All sorts of old technologies are maintained. For all sorts of reasons.

The original dinosaurs died out but versions of such are still with us today: birds.

C
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

Post by Tommy »

I think technology will evolve to the point that film manufacturing will become easier and cheaper...something along the lines of the 3D printing evolution. Of course, that maybe 10-15 years away...a whole new generation may rediscover film.
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Re: We may have solved the mystery of why film just looks be

Post by Will2 »

carllooper wrote:The images on the right use exactly the same number of colours (or grey tones), namely 4. This reduction in colours (from the original) is called "quantisation".
I do a ton of print/graphic design work. I'm constantly adding noise to individual CMYK channels so that gradients print smoothly. Just a tiny bit of noise introduced to the cyan, magenta, yellow & black channels (individually applied) has the combined effect of making gradients look continuous and not "stepped." It makes it look better on screen but more noticeably better once printed. I'm sure similar principles are at play.

Another print cousin to what you're describing is in the old process of half toning that makes printing photos in newspapers or sending via fax look much better.

Image

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