16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Forum covering all aspects of small gauge cinematography! This is the main discussion forum.

Moderator: Andreas Wideroe

Post Reply
carllooper
Senior member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:00 am
Real name: Carl Looper

16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by carllooper »

I was wondering which format would be better (UP8 or S8) if targeting a distribution aspect of 16:9

Compared to S8, UP8 provides a reasonable amount of improvement in the amount of emulsion used, so that's a plus, but it also has a lot more unused emulsion. Does that matter? It depends on the cost per frame of each.

I was quite surprised by the result of this quick study.

The following uses figures from random sources but it gives a ball park indication.

1 foot = 80 frames in UP8 = 8000 frames/100'
4.227 mm = 1 frame in Super8 = 3549 frames/15m

100' UltraPan 8 (16mm) = $37.57 / 8000 frames = 0.469c/frame
15m Super8 = $24.00 / 3549 frames = 0.676c/frame

The per frame cost of UltraPan8 stock is cheaper than the per frame cost of Super8 stock.

And processing?

16mm = 20c/foot = 20c/80 frames = 0.25c/frame
S8 = $35/cart = 3500c/3549 frames = 1.014c/frame

The same. The per frame cost of UltraPan8 processing (16mm processing) is cheaper than the per frame cost of Super8 processing.

So in terms of both image quality and cost per frame, UP8 works out better. One would need to improve the cost of Super8 by about two (ie. halve the price) to even reach that point where the cost of S8 is the same as UP8, let alone where it might start to override the additional image quality offered by UP8 - all else being equal (eg. using a bolex UP8 camera was no different from using an S8 camera).

Image
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
bolextech
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:16 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by bolextech »

Hi Carl,

You could simplify you math a little by saying: Super8 is 72 frames/foot. 50 feet is 3600 frames.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis
Jean-Louis Seguin
Motion Picture Camera Technician
Montreal, Canada
carllooper
Senior member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:00 am
Real name: Carl Looper

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by carllooper »

bolextech wrote:Hi Carl,

You could simplify you math a little by saying: Super8 is 72 frames/foot. 50 feet is 3600 frames.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis
Thanks Jean-Louse. Must remember that: 72 frames/foot. Less button pushing on the calculator. :)
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
carllooper
Senior member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:00 am
Real name: Carl Looper

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by carllooper »

To be fair one could argue that if 16:9 were one's preferred target (and why not - it's now the ubiquitous standard aspect), and that Super8 was your benchmark, then 16mm, rather than UP8, might be better, because:

a. 16mm provides better image quality than UP8 (in the 16:9 to 4:3 domain)
b. 16mm is no more hassle than shooting UP8.
c. 16mm costs more or less the same as Super8 per frame (to which you might be already accustomed)

So what happens here, of course, is the classic quality/cost tradeoff.

You can trade in the additional quality of 16mm (over UP8), for twice the amount of UP8 running time per foot (over 16mm). In other words, a choice of UP8 (over 16mm) will have your cost per frame go down by 2. Classic tradeoff. However your quality goes down by 4 (well actually a little less than 4) but that is something you could very well wear for the cost saving. [For me a quality drop of 4X is not necessarily a problem because I'm experimenting with, and developing the recovery of, any lost quality, through digital means - so it's more a question of stock cost than image quality].

Where UP8 really comes into it's own, is when targeting the wider aspects (Cinemascope and wider). The quality/cost tradeoff vanishes. You would have to start bringing anamorphics to 16mm to up the ante on the side of 16mm. Additional hassle of course, but better quality. But no cost saving. But if you're happy using anamorphics (as I could be) - guess what - you can then up the ante on the side of UP8 again: doing cinemascope 3D on UP8 becomes possible. To do the same in 16mm you'd need a 4X anamorphic (do they exist), or a complex over/under prism arrangement (costly). And again, no cost saving.

What I always end up doing in these situations is not necessarily selecting one over another but just buying into each. However it's good to have an idea of the factors involved when selecting which for a specific project.

Carl

Here is what UP8.3D would look like on the film (using 2X anamorphic and readily available 3D adapters)

Simulation only (cut and paste job in Photoshop):

Image

A relatively easy program could be written to unsqueeze each frame back into 2.8:1, and multiplex them into currently available 3D codecs (BlueRay3D) or anaglyph (red/cyan). And there are relatively cheap electronic glasses you can buy that convert your average computer monitor into a 3D screen. Who needs a 3DTV when those are readily available?

Apart from the novelty and tech challenge there are critical issues with 3D, in terms of philosophical/artistic temperment. I found this essay on "immersive" technology interesting:

http://uartsinbelgrade.academia.edu/Jel ... liver_Grau
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
oneworldstudios
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:31 am
Real name: Zack Coffman
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by oneworldstudios »

I'm not too familiar with UP8, but we shot approx 18,000 feet of Super8 and scanned to HD and enlarged to 16:9. We've been very happy with the look and the HD holds up very well in theatrical exhibition. We originally were going to shoot in digital but chose Super 8mm after seeing The National's "Fake Empire" video. From that point on it was about getting the look we wanted and we reworked the entire film to fit the budget to shoot in S8. So back to aesthetics vs. cost which is always the battle.

16:9 screencaps posted on this Filmshooting thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22930

As an aside, if you haven't seen the Fake Empire video, check it out. Beautiful song and beautiful S8 images.
Posted here. Scroll to bottom of page.


I Am ZoZo - the Super8mm Ouija Movie
Twitter
Facebook
I Am ZoZo
a Ouija Movie shot entirely on Super 8mm
carllooper
Senior member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:00 am
Real name: Carl Looper

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by carllooper »

oneworldstudios wrote:16:9 screencaps posted on this Filmshooting thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22930
As an aside, if you haven't seen the Fake Empire video, check it out. Beautiful song and beautiful S8 images.
Posted here. Scroll to bottom of page.
Do you have any example frames of Super8 scans at full scan size. The small image looks fine, but would be great to see a larger one as well. Larger ones can be misleading of course, as they will not be as indicative of how a film looks when running at 24fps, but in a tech discussion forum many will be familiar the required mental compensation.

The Fake Empire film looks great, which owes a lot to the content and photography of that film, as much as the filmstock.

Super8 cameras (with their carts) are extremely convenient . That is their strength with respect to the other film formats. Their ease of use. Quick and fast. Enabling guerilla type of filmmaking (relative to larger formats). And why I'll remain indefinitely happy with Super8. If only the cost of Super8 were more appropriate to it's frame size. I was quite surprised to discover that the cost of Super8 was almost the same as 16mm (at least in my random foray into costs). In terms of film emulsion Super8 is roughly a quarter the area of 16mm and while there are additional costs involved in cutting Super8, and cart packaging, I would have thought maybe half the price of 16mm would be the figure. In any case it just goes to show how much value is attached to convenience.

Of course, if convenience is a big enough motive, digital cameras become attractive - as they are even more convenient. I recall seventies political activism in which Super8 was championed for it's convenience (over 16mm) enabling a form of a filmmaking that fit into the activist framework - a kind of David over Goliath framework. Indeed most of the Super8 filmmakers I knew of the political persuasion, adopted video (early eighties) extremely easily - image quality was always of secondary value to content. It was the "ease of use" factor that was important - especially in the fast moving situations that political activism inhabits.

The poetry of film (which is no less political) tends to command the film domain today. The need for speed is a less critical factor. But convenience remains a value, even so. Super8 sits at it's own unique pivot point.
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
Will2
Senior member
Posts: 1983
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:18 am
Real name: Will Montgomery
Location: Dallas, TX
Contact:

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by Will2 »

If 16:9 is your thing, shoot 3-perf 35mm. Cameras are coming down crazy fast.

Personally I'm a fan of 2-perf 35mm. 35mm short ends and recans are still widely available (unlike 16mm short ends and recans). No compromise at all on image quality.

"UltraPan8" is fun but pretty limited on the cameras and lenses available I would think.
carllooper
Senior member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:00 am
Real name: Carl Looper

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by carllooper »

Will2 wrote:If 16:9 is your thing, shoot 3-perf 35mm. Cameras are coming down crazy fast.

Personally I'm a fan of 2-perf 35mm. 35mm short ends and recans are still widely available (unlike 16mm short ends and recans). No compromise at all on image quality.

"UltraPan8" is fun but pretty limited on the cameras and lenses available I would think.
I'll definitely be pursuing 35mm later this year. No problem there. Your work in that area has ignited my imagination. The short you had last year, of the kids down by the river, in B&W, is still as fresh in my imagination as the first time I saw it.

With respect to UP8 it is actually the cinemascope aspect of UP8 that has intrigued me there. The comparison I did, with a focus on 16:9 was simply to show that even at the cross-over point, where the image improvement is at it's minimum, the cost saving is attractive. For cinemascope (my main interest) the image improvement was already the clincher. The cost saving was an added bonus.

I've also written a script which is specifically written with the UP8 format in mind (the same way one might write dialogue with a particular actor in mind). It's partly a showcase for my digital work (enhancing small gauge film) so it sort of depends on shooting with a small gauge film format. Those same techniques can be used with 35mm of course but then you'd have to scan the film at 4K or beyond for the digital process to be able to do anything significant.
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
Will2
Senior member
Posts: 1983
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:18 am
Real name: Will Montgomery
Location: Dallas, TX
Contact:

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by Will2 »

I've actually always thought that a "2-perf 16mm" would be interesting (of course not actually 2-perf but half height 16mm) and that's exactly what that UltraPan is right?

I'm seeing 35mm Spirit scans at $.25/foot to ProRes 444 HD and 16mm about $.50/foot with a really good colorist. So that's like $25/minute.

I bought 8000 ft of 35mm Fuji 64D for $260 (Incredibly cheap but tested fine). That's 3.25 cents per foot for the film. Processing is $.16/foot.

So to shoot, process and transfer 35mm that's about $.48/foot or $48 per minute. Maybe $52 per minute after shipping it around. That money adds up if you don't have a production paying for it.
carllooper
Senior member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:00 am
Real name: Carl Looper

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by carllooper »

Will2 wrote:So to shoot, process and transfer 35mm that's about $.48/foot or $48 per minute. Maybe $52 per minute after shipping it around. That money adds up if you don't have a production paying for it.
Yeah - it's not as expensive as what one might otherwise think. So for about twice the cost of Super8 (and possibly slightly less than twice) you can shoot 35mm.

And if you normally take a relaxed approach to Super8 (high shooting ratio), you could trade that in for more planning (ala Hitchcock) and do a 35mm film for the same cost as you might have otherwise shot a Super8 film of the same release length.

Carl

I think I might include some 35mm film shots in my otherwise UP8 project.
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
User avatar
Nicholas Kovats
Posts: 772
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:21 pm
Real name: Nicholas Kovats
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by Nicholas Kovats »

Standard 16mm optics provide full coverage with slight magnification due to the utilization of the 'center' of the lens, ergo thousands.

UP8 recycles both pre-existing Bolex R8 and 16mm line of cameras. I do not have actual numbers but I suspect it is the dominant and historical 16mm form factor. We are approaching 5x actual hybrid UP8 cameras.

The limitation is not one of resource availability.
Will2 wrote: "UltraPan8" is fun but pretty limited on the cameras and lenses available I would think.
Nicholas Kovats
Shoot film! facebook.com/UltraPan8WidescreenFilm
User avatar
Nicholas Kovats
Posts: 772
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:21 pm
Real name: Nicholas Kovats
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by Nicholas Kovats »

Hence the original design intent of maximizing imaging area relative to the smaller formats and to allow extraction of various smaller formats such as Cinemascope, 16:9, etc. The UP8 frame = 10.52mm x 3.75mm. UP8 is a 119% and 39% increase in imaging area relative to R8 and S8 respectively as per SMPTE camera gate.

And yes, relative to standard 16mm gate it is a decrease in imaging area. However, we still have not reached the theoretical extraction limit regarding the film record across all formats. The current state of the art is impressive IMHO.
Nicholas Kovats
Shoot film! facebook.com/UltraPan8WidescreenFilm
carllooper
Senior member
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:00 am
Real name: Carl Looper

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by carllooper »

freedom4kids wrote:And yes, relative to standard 16mm gate it is a decrease in imaging area. However, we still have not reached the theoretical extraction limit regarding the film record across all formats. The current state of the art is impressive IMHO.
It's not so much that we haven't reached the theoretical extraction limit, but that theories typically used to declare extraction limits are not mathematical. Were they mathematical the limits would be declared infinite (and ignoring Buzz Lightyear, we would never reach them). Defining mathematical limits on extraction are correspondingly impractical (and unbelievable). For the first reason (if not the second) limits are typically theorised in terms of subjective tests and more robustly using statistics. But new technology, designed with both statistical operators (as distinct from limit estimators) and mathematics (idealism) in mind, if not also a desire for AC Clarke magic, can push past these otherwise subjectively defined limits (or statistically defined limits), ie. towards the mathematical limit (infinity). And we simply don't know how far they can be pushed. Surprises (so far) continue to be possible.

To infinity and beyond - Buzz Lightyear
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
Will2
Senior member
Posts: 1983
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:18 am
Real name: Will Montgomery
Location: Dallas, TX
Contact:

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by Will2 »

The only limitation on UP8 is stocks right? Hard to get 100' reels of regular 8 right now and limited on types of stocks right?

What's the camera going for now?
User avatar
Nicholas Kovats
Posts: 772
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:21 pm
Real name: Nicholas Kovats
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: 16:9 UltraPan8 and Super8, and cost per frame

Post by Nicholas Kovats »

The two common 25FT 2R-1497 R8 stocks are:

1. Ektachrome 100D color reversal
2. Tri-X b/w reversal

As I have posted elsewhere, LIFT in Toronto made minimum bulk purchases of 20x 400 FT rolls of each stock (2R-1497). They can roll down any length and can ship globally. I tend to purchase the 100 FT rolls.

Camera mod prices vary and it depends if you already have either or both H16 or H8 bodies. Contact Jean-Louis Seguin <bolextech@gmail.com> directly for a specific quote.
Nicholas Kovats
Shoot film! facebook.com/UltraPan8WidescreenFilm
Post Reply