eclair acl vs npr vs beaulieu r16

Post by **ericMartinJarvies** » Sat May 24, 2003 7:31 am

hello,

has anyone shot film on all three of these cameras wherein you would have enough experience to detail the differances between the three in terms of image quality and camera/operational noise?

i have only used the r16.

currently i am trying to dela with the sound issues the beaulieu's have, as i would like to shoot some close-ups using my wide lenses, while at the same time rolling sound. i have a blimp, but it does not cut out all of the noise. are the acl or npr quite?

Post by BK » Sat May 24, 2003 8:56 am

Hi Eric,

I have only used the Eclair ACL and would say it's very very quiet because its designed for shooting double system sync sound. Image quality is superb also. Another camera worth looking into is the Cinema Products CP16, quiet, reliable, and affordable.

Bill

Post by **mattias** » Sat May 24, 2003 5:26 pm

the acl and npr are both almost silent and both produce very steady images. i haven't even seen a r16 though, so i can't comment on the difference.

/matt

Post by **tacotim** » Sat May 24, 2003 5:39 pm

I have used an NPR and I use an R16 regularly. The difference in sound is almost no comparison, the R16 sounds like a truck, and the NPR is very close to silent. If you were doing wide lens close ups with the NPR, you would probably still be able to hear some cam noise, but it would be acceptable where as the noise from the beaulieu would not be.
In terms of Image quality, R16's differ greatly, if you have one of the later models (the ones that don't have a separate battery for the meter) Then the registration should be rouck solid. I know mine is. Grom there it's more of a question of the glass you put in front of the film. All three of those cameras should give you an excellent image provided you use a decent lens. Good Luck

-Tim

Post by **teadub** » Sat May 24, 2003 6:45 pm

hey eric,

as far as the npr and the r16 are concerned, i am going to have to agree with tacotim. the npr is one of the quitest cameras i have ever used. that's including the arri BL16 (which is pretty quite). the r16 is super loud, it reminds me more of a chainsaw than a 16mm camera.

if i had to choose a louder camera i would use a newer bolex way before an r16. they have gotten a bit quiter over the years, or i would go with an arri s (because of its small size and superior registration).

Post by **ericMartinJarvies** » Sat May 24, 2003 6:47 pm

hello,

thanks for the input. so are you saying as long as the film is exposed correctly and a good lens is used, the same picture quality can be expected from al three of these cameras? they are all stable image makers of the same quality? it is merely a question of the sound/noise? i found a eclair with a ton of film mags and extra add-on accessories that seemed a good deal. i have a never-used late model r16 that i have been preparing for use, in terms of setting it up with mattebox, etc. but my script calls for a great number of scenes wherein the camera will be fairly close to the subjects and objects, thus a quite camera would be preferred.

can i use my c-mount lenses on the eclair cameras?

Post by **cineandy** » Sat May 24, 2003 7:05 pm

Hi Eric, what lens do you use on your R16,i use an R16, i would of thought image quality mainly depends on the bottle you have on the front of the camera, i use two angenieux primes which are very good, until you compare them to a zeiss of the same focal length on me st...i would of thought that as long as all the cameras are set up ok, image quality will depend on your glassware....surely a 12-120 t2.5
on a R16 would be the same as a 12-120 on an eclair.. though i am probably wrong???

Post by **ericMartinJarvies** » Sat May 24, 2003 7:54 pm

cineandy,

that is my question as well. in the end, all the cameras are basically serving the same purpose ... letting light to the film. so aside from camera noise, is there really a differance? for example, is the image more stable on a eclair then a beaulieu?

regarding glass, is a c-mount beaulieu with a c-mount 12-120 going to give the same image as a arri-mount 12-120 lens on an arri 16mm camera? if the answer is yes, then i can live with the beaulieu. but if i am going to improve both image quality and reduce noise, then the eclair seems an interesting proposition.

i am going to list for sale my beaulieu 7008 pro super8 sound sync system camera with dual crystal(on-camera and on the sony dolby cassette recorder), blimp, 3 perfect batteries, owners manual, 7-56/f1.4 schneider lens, and all the cables, etc. i would like to use that money to purchase an eclair. or trade for one. anyone have one they want to trade?

Post by **Nigel** » Sat May 24, 2003 8:08 pm

The Eclair cameras will be much more quiet than the Beaulieu. As for the big Arri BL(16mm not the 35mm BL) that camera is a beast and is loud!!

The Eclair ACL has some weak points--Look at the Jean post and my comments there. To summerize them they are--C-Mount lenses, possibly only a 200 foot mag(Depends on the generation).

The Eclair NPR is a bit odd to hold onto. But it does have a a CA1 mount port.

As for the "Look" of the cameras that can depend on the lens and film stock and the way that the film was processed and printed or Xfered. This is why a Beaulieu and a Nizo will look different--The glass on the front. I do a lot of tests with lenses before a big shoot. I know how some look and not others--Zeiss has high contrast and are very sharp. Angenieux is much warmer as I have found with Cooke.

It can also depend on the fps--Arri with their solid pin registration will seem to handle high speeds better. My Aaton doesn't have a pin and it is rock solid--it also doesn't go to 150fps.

As for sync sound recording--16mm will be much better than Super8.

Good Luck

Post by **teadub** » Sat May 24, 2003 9:11 pm

Nigel wrote:The Eclair cameras will be much more quiet than the Beaulieu. As for the big Arri BL(16mm not the 35mm BL) that camera is a beast and is loud!!

i shot thousands of feet double system on an arri BL16 and i thought it was rather quiet. we did have a situaton were the motor got screwed up and it got louder (still not as loud as an R16), but after service it came back quiet. it had the crystal synch setup from tobin. we had a big 'ol ziess zoom lens on it and the quality was the highest i have ever shot.

you are right about it being rather large, but as far as being loud. i have to think either : a. the camera you used needed to be serviced, or b. the camera i used had sound dampening somehow or was of a different generation (it was not blimped or barneyed)

nigel wrote:The Eclair NPR is a bit odd to hold onto. But it does have a a CA1 mount port.

i agree, it has a rather odd shape.

eric,

things to consider are, registration and optics. the other posts are right on. Angeniuex lenses are nice, but Ziess are nicer. Arri has the best registration, i have heard great things about aaton's but can't speak from personal experience.

Post by **Nigel** » Sat May 24, 2003 9:38 pm

The 16mm BL is loud--When you compare it to an Arri S it might be quiet or compared to a Beaulieu R16. However, you compare it to a modern 16mm camera and you will hear a huge difference.

Try not to make claims about how much better Zeiss is when it is all in the eye of the DP.

Zeiss is nice glass without a doubt but to say it is "nicer" than Angenieux or Cooke is beyond anyone to say. I think that it looks to sharp and has to high of contrast. This is why I got rid of my Zeiss primes. I shot with the Cooke S4 series of lenses and thought that they were the best I have ever seen.

As for Aaton--registration it is great. It is every bit as solid(If not better) as Arri on speeds up to 75fps. Beyond that I can't make a claim.

EMJ--In your price range the ACL might be the way to go.

Good Luck

Post by **Basstruc** » Sun May 25, 2003 3:06 am

ACL is an economic and more portable version of the NPR. It does not have adjustable shutter (very important to me) and turret.
Matt

Post by **sk8s** » Sun May 25, 2003 4:58 pm

The ACL is smaller, lighter and easier to handhold than the NPR. The ACL is also a little more quiet. The NPR has the 2 lens turret, a plus for some one with some C mount lenses in the collection. Easily upgradable to Super 16. Video assist avilable too.

The NPR is a little difficult to handhold due to the motor placement. AATON made a very small motor for the npr called the ALCAN 54. The smallest best motor for that camera. The big, big, advantage of the NPR is the variable shutter. The least costly camera pro camera to have that feature. If you want the shoot something that resembles the opening of Saving Private Ryan, the NPR is the best choice. Upgradable to S16. Video assist available.

The CP 16R is not as quiet as the Eclairs. The mags are displacement which make steadicam use a little more difficult. The camera are more reliable than the eclair but far less elegant. Not very many accesories exist for these cameras. Visual Products will upgrade some models to S16 and PL mount.

All these cameras have there good and bad points. It is the lenses that will make or break any camera.
-Rob Skates

Post by **supa_ate_sixteen** » Mon May 26, 2003 12:03 am

I own an Arri and used a R16 but it broke because the damn thing was so delicate it broke on me whithin a couple days. I want to upgrade to S16 and found much of what was said here facinating. The NPR, judging by ebay photos, looks to be like one of the most uncomfortable cameras to handhold or to wear on the shoulder. Is there a way to get a comfortable setup with that damn motor where your shoulder goes? The variable shutter sounds fascinating to me and I love the strobe look for experimental stuff. Is there a dramatic weight difference between the ACL and NPR? Traditional cost differences on ebay? Is zeiss glass readily available for both cameras? I have only used shneider and the Ang. 12-120 and I would have to agree on soft detail I find in wide angles with that particular lens. The most economical super 16 camera I have seen so far was a CP16 modified to S16 and included a video tap for $4,500! I probably would of bought it but am still trying to make a decision.

Post by **Lucas Lightfeat** » Mon May 26, 2003 1:45 am

I used to own an Arri BL, and it is a heavy beast, but after Arri serviced and collimated it (for Ã‚Â£35) it was every bit as quiet as both SR2's I have used. They are the cheapest ($2500) cameras you can make a high quality sound film on, in my opinion. Forget the Beaulieu R16 for sound - it is a joke for noise. The 16BL is a great camera if you're not doing handheld - really strong, reliable, rotating mirror shutter, crystal, 400 ft mags etc. and quiet enough for all but the closest indoor shots.

Lucas