How to Clear Bleach Stains from Processed Film?

Post by **ccortez** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:15 am

Oy.

1.5 weeks ago, I sent 4 rolls of 16mm Fomapan to Film & Video Services in Minneapolis for processing. I have used them before with perfect results.

All of the footage was stuff I shot sporadically over the course of the first year of my twin baby girls' lives. Easily the most precious and irreplacable films I have ever made.

Needless to say, I have been very excited all week for the film to come back, and today it did. Here's what arrived:

1 - Bill for $70
1 - Handwritten Note (quite long)
4 - 100' Reels in Cans

Reel 1 - Completely cleared out; barely faintly almost image sometimes
Reel 2 - About 1/4 w/no bleach staining, 3/4 bleach stained moderately to badly
Reel 3 - All bleach stained moderately to badly
Reel 4 - All bleach stained badly

(I'm not sure I've actually spoken out loud since I forced myself to project and watch it all, though my wife has asked me several questions...)

Of course, Reel 1 was IIRC entirely shot in the first 2 weeks of the girls' lives. Bye bye.

The rest may (?!?) be salvageable, or at least I'm wondering: is there anything I can do to clear the remaining bleach from this footage? I have a lomo tank and I'm willing to snip the 100' in half to solve this problem.

Here's what "Handwritten Note" says:

Your rolls of Fomapan came through the process Bleach stained, aside from #1 which is totally cleared out.

I have no explanation for this as several hundred feet of Kodak film went through the process both before and after your film and came out perfect.

Everything with our machine + chemistry was running by the standards set down by Kodak. We have processed a good amount of Fomapan with our current process and it has come out looking great in the past.

If you would like, I can run your film through the process again, which should clear out the bleach stains, but it will also soften the images, maybe even clear them out?

If you have more of this film we can work with you to make it come out by doing clip tests + working with the process...

But I thought the bath times were different for Foma and Kodak b/w?

Anyway, please give me some advice, or at least some reason not to cry.

Thanks,
Chris

Post by **thebigidea** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:54 am

I was about to send them a bunch of Fomapan and he replied:

" I'll be doing a full chemical change over the long weekend and I would recomend you don't have any of your film processed until the change on the 5th. it will still look great if you need it ran on this thursday, but let me know... i prefer to run my film through the fresh soup. Also your fomapan should definately wait to run, because I have gotten the best results processing fomapan on a fresh bleach."

Hearing your story, my god, i'll wait - or maybe find some other place to do the Foma! I've had great luck with FVS doing all my kodak and even some svema, but I really need these foma inserts for a DVD and can't afford to have them come out fucked. Granted, it wouldn't be as horrifying as having baby footage be destroyed, but there would be a certain amount of hair pulled out of my head.

Post by **Ludwig Draser** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:26 am

Hello.
Fomapan and Kodak have totally different processes and times. It is normally not possible, to process Fomapan with the same conditions as Kodak material. For Fomapan we have to change some in our processor and thats why we do not offer Fomapan processing in standard times.
Generally Fomapan are with much more problems in chemical differences as kodak material and needs a lot of care. Also the emulsions are different and not so stable as the Kodak ones.
Kindly regards
Ludwig Draser

Post by **Angus** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:31 am

For home processing you can use the same chemicals as with Kodak films but as Ludwig suggests more care is needed and the timings are different.

I'd be surprised if a lab is running Kodak and Foma material at the same time. If the machine is set for Kodak film it won't produce good results with the Foma...maybe acceptable but not good.

Post by **audadvnc** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:42 pm

My old Norton motorcycle was missing a head gasket bolt. So I was gonna go to the Norton dealer, but I couldn't find one, so I went to the Yamaha dealer for a bolt. It looked pretty close to the original, so I wrenched it in. Now my head gasket leaks and the threads are stripped. Damm that Yamaha company for selling me a bolt.

Post by **Arislan** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:35 pm

audadvnc wrote:My old Norton motorcycle was missing a head gasket bolt. So I was gonna go to the Norton dealer, but I couldn't find one, so I went to the Yamaha dealer for a bolt. It looked pretty close to the original, so I wrenched it in. Now my head gasket leaks and the threads are stripped. Damm that Yamaha company for selling me a bolt.

Square peg. Round hole.

Post by **ccortez** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:48 pm

audadvnc wrote:My old Norton motorcycle was missing a head gasket bolt. So I was gonna go to the Norton dealer, but I couldn't find one, so I went to the Yamaha dealer for a bolt. It looked pretty close to the original, so I wrenched it in. Now my head gasket leaks and the threads are stripped. Damm that Yamaha company for selling me a bolt.

My understanding was that FVS processes Fomapan. That understanding came from a previous telephone conversation with them and from previous experience having had them develop my Fomapan.

Never was I under the impression that they'd just toss it in the middle of a run of a bunch of Kodak film. And now I see them recommending to another forum member -- requesting Foma development for the same week mine was developed -- that he wait until after a chemical change and take advantage of "fresh soup" (probably fresh bleach most importantly).

Post by **ccortez** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:52 pm

ludwig Draser wrote:Hello.
Fomapan and Kodak have totally different processes and times. It is normally not possible, to process Fomapan with the same conditions as Kodak material. For Fomapan we have to change some in our processor and thats why we do not offer Fomapan processing in standard times.
Generally Fomapan are with much more problems in chemical differences as kodak material and needs a lot of care. Also the emulsions are different and not so stable as the Kodak ones.
Kindly regards
Ludwig Draser

Thanks Ludwig. That's what I thought. I've hand-processed lots of Kodak b/w, but never any Foma. But I do remember looking at the data sheets that came with some Fomapan and recognizing significant differences at least in the bath times.

Is there anything I can do myself to try and clear the remaining bleach? Can I load it up in my lomo spiral and put it through a clearing bath and/or rinse?

Post by **thebigidea** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:45 pm

>My old Norton motorcycle was missing a head gasket bolt. So I was >gonna go to the Norton dealer, but I couldn't find one, so I went to the >Yamaha dealer for a bolt. It looked pretty close to the original, so I >wrenched it in. Now my head gasket leaks and the threads are stripped. >Damm that Yamaha company for selling me a bolt.

Wouldn't it be more like going to Pep Boys for a bolt and having the guy there swear up and down this generic bolt works great on your bike?

Post by **ccortez** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:50 pm

Whatever it's like, I'll probably never use Fomapan again unless I'm hand-processing it. And I'll certainly never use FVS again!

I'm vascillating between heartsick and murderous. I'm trying to time my call with them to make sure I'm murderous when I pick up the phone. The really insulting thing is that they charged me for destroying my work.

Sad, sad.

Post by **thebigidea** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:58 pm

Yeah, they should've refunded your money and probably also threw in fresh stock. The one time a lab trashed my stuff 6-7 years ago that was the case. Well, after I screamed bloody murder anyway. So yeah, make sure you're in a murderous mood.

I just thought it was strange someone was seemingly blaming you for sending your film to a lab who said they could process it, and had done so in the past!

Post by **Arislan** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:36 pm

I never had THAT much trouble with FVS and will continue using them as long as its trouble-free. But then, I don't use bizarre, obscure stocks from who knows where.

Now, this isn't to say it has always been without trouble. I had minor issues when I called them up and they could not find my order. This was irritating but not lethal since they processed it, sent it to me, and had completely no records of doing so.

My films arrived 1 month after the film I sent to Dwayne's. They were both sent the same day. There are no perfect labs, in my opinion.

Wittner will take forever to return your film.
Dwayne's will return your E64T looking like it was covered in multicoloured confetti.
Forde never updates their site.
Neither does FVS, and they seem to have a hard time keeping records.
Yale will call you to say they saw a woman wearing a bikini on your reels, and that they will send you that roll processed but won't touch the rest and you are banned from their service...
Pro8mm is Pro8mm and *I* particularly think they are annoying.
Seems you are stuck with John Schwind for quality and even he can't guarantee 100% success because he apparently outsources certain jobs.
Haven't tried Andec nor Widescreencentre.

Post by **thebigidea** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:00 pm

Also the price is damn hard to beat, and they are a lot more helpful than say, Pac-Lab. I couldn't picture Pac-Lab working with me for weeks experimenting to get hideously outdated svema looking its best - for FREE.

But this Fomapan thing sounds horrid! What a nightmare. Anyone else have any experiences with FVS and Foma? Or other US labs?

Post by **tlatosmd** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:15 pm

Arislan wrote:Wittner will take forever to return your film.

I don't understand your recent Wittner-bashing lately. I myself just as well as people I know have had very positive experience concerning their customer service and reliability.

Post by **ccortez** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:17 pm

Mr. Pytlak suggests it may have been underbleached (I'm sure there's a term for that, but never mind). The staining shows up in the highlight areas, which may mean silver left on the emulsion. Ugh. I'll likely trip refixing and rinsing some strips of the worst bits, just to see if it gets a little better.